Instructor Crashes Student's Car
01-12-2008, 11:14 PM
#107
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Mindy,
I read you husband's original post (which was deleted sortly thereafter) on the incident many months ago. I recall either you were going to attempt or intended to contact Trackmasters. I'm rather curious how they responded to your situation?
Mike
I read you husband's original post (which was deleted sortly thereafter) on the incident many months ago. I recall either you were going to attempt or intended to contact Trackmasters. I'm rather curious how they responded to your situation?
Mike
Last edited by Mike S.; 01-12-2008 at 11:16 PM. Reason: Clarification
03-12-2008, 10:15 AM
#108
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I had many instructors drive my car on FL PCA and PBOC events. It was always exactly the same, they showed the upmost respect of my car, basically driving a parade lap in third or fourth gear, showing the line and getting comfort that the car was solid. Short of space debris or sucide bombers, there was no way by any chance of them hurting my car.
I liked them driving my car, because they could give me better advise and they would feel more comfortable being passenger in my car.
This dude had no business crashing her car and should pay up.
keep the pressure on him and hell yes, I think it is great to let every student know to stay clear of some rutheless rouge instructor....
I liked them driving my car, because they could give me better advise and they would feel more comfortable being passenger in my car.
This dude had no business crashing her car and should pay up.
keep the pressure on him and hell yes, I think it is great to let every student know to stay clear of some rutheless rouge instructor....
sorry, didn't see it was an old thread... 
03-13-2008, 10:09 AM
#111
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Thread Starter
{THIS IS[B] MINDY[/B], not Marc}
Let's clear up one or two things, and call this a wrap in that the warning is issued. Paul Wilson, Roger Cassin, Mark Russo are ultimately the three drivers who apparently conspired not to pay; PAUL WILSON is the driver who crashed the car. Tell your friends, tell your enemies, spread the word as you see fit. These men are scum. End of story.
Why did I let him drive the car? Well, duh, I shouldn't have. But I did. I do not have an overly fast car ('95 993) and I am not in green. I view the 2-lap green drive in a much different category. You can drive the Glen in 3rd and still give a greenie a great experience in thrill and information. I am also not in red. But I have a fair amount of experience in the passenger seat of very fast cars and very fast drivers (often not the same) and can tell all of you instructors that, to some of us wanting to learn to drive well, it is NOT the sheer speed!!! This was a session where the instructor was supposed to demonstrate to the student whatever was being taught in the previous sessions. We were supposed to be in his car, he asked to use mine since he would not take his out (wasn't even his as it turned out). I know that I am not the fastest in my class but I also know that you do not teach speed by driving too fast and playing around in the turns. That's gross negligence.
I agree whole heartedly w/TD (a true track gentleman that I had the pleasure of meeting several years ago) about the current state of the waiver and I certainly agree with everyone claiming that the waiver should be part of an advance package or download. But I also agree that gross negligence can always be argued in a situation like this and waivers are not designed to protect against that. But do not let anyone fool you -- courts are never your friends!!!
So why let him drive the car? Pretty much because I was told to, by a person with 35 years of instructing experience who acted as a representative (TM assigned him to me) of a group that I was paying to improve my track driving skills. (To you lawyers, I bet this sounds a little like discrimination and employment cases.) Bad decision? You bet.
Interestingly, I know of another instructor who crashed someone's car. It was not a student-instructor relationship but the owner was in the passenger seat. All things worked out well (for the people, don't know about the car) because the two men involved were just that -- two men involved in a situation that they needed to take care of and they did. Silly me, I thought that was the norm.
Where should we come down on this? Good judgement should not automatically mean that an instructor should never drive a student's car. Personal responsibility means that we are responsible for our actions. Assumption of the risk begs the question -- what is the risk? Is the risk driving? Is the risk letting another drive? Is the risk being on the track? Yes.
More than the money, more than the inconvenience, more than the lost track time and more the emotional upheaval that I will admit I let this get to, I am crushed that I cannot trust the next person in the paddock.
PAUL WILSON, Roger Cassin, Mark Russo. They are not Porsche drivers, but watch for them at the track with other organizations. Warn private companies to not allow these people on the track, or as instructors.
Every situation is unique and that is why this incident stands alone and should not be compared to what is done most first green sessions at a PCA DE. And you should not be at the track if you cannot afford the consequences. I may be complaining, but we are paying (ty Marc), and we should have a shiny and happy car at SP next week!
-- Mindy
Let's clear up one or two things, and call this a wrap in that the warning is issued. Paul Wilson, Roger Cassin, Mark Russo are ultimately the three drivers who apparently conspired not to pay; PAUL WILSON is the driver who crashed the car. Tell your friends, tell your enemies, spread the word as you see fit. These men are scum. End of story.
Why did I let him drive the car? Well, duh, I shouldn't have. But I did. I do not have an overly fast car ('95 993) and I am not in green. I view the 2-lap green drive in a much different category. You can drive the Glen in 3rd and still give a greenie a great experience in thrill and information. I am also not in red. But I have a fair amount of experience in the passenger seat of very fast cars and very fast drivers (often not the same) and can tell all of you instructors that, to some of us wanting to learn to drive well, it is NOT the sheer speed!!! This was a session where the instructor was supposed to demonstrate to the student whatever was being taught in the previous sessions. We were supposed to be in his car, he asked to use mine since he would not take his out (wasn't even his as it turned out). I know that I am not the fastest in my class but I also know that you do not teach speed by driving too fast and playing around in the turns. That's gross negligence.
I agree whole heartedly w/TD (a true track gentleman that I had the pleasure of meeting several years ago) about the current state of the waiver and I certainly agree with everyone claiming that the waiver should be part of an advance package or download. But I also agree that gross negligence can always be argued in a situation like this and waivers are not designed to protect against that. But do not let anyone fool you -- courts are never your friends!!!
So why let him drive the car? Pretty much because I was told to, by a person with 35 years of instructing experience who acted as a representative (TM assigned him to me) of a group that I was paying to improve my track driving skills. (To you lawyers, I bet this sounds a little like discrimination and employment cases.) Bad decision? You bet.
Interestingly, I know of another instructor who crashed someone's car. It was not a student-instructor relationship but the owner was in the passenger seat. All things worked out well (for the people, don't know about the car) because the two men involved were just that -- two men involved in a situation that they needed to take care of and they did. Silly me, I thought that was the norm.
Where should we come down on this? Good judgement should not automatically mean that an instructor should never drive a student's car. Personal responsibility means that we are responsible for our actions. Assumption of the risk begs the question -- what is the risk? Is the risk driving? Is the risk letting another drive? Is the risk being on the track? Yes.
More than the money, more than the inconvenience, more than the lost track time and more the emotional upheaval that I will admit I let this get to, I am crushed that I cannot trust the next person in the paddock.
PAUL WILSON, Roger Cassin, Mark Russo. They are not Porsche drivers, but watch for them at the track with other organizations. Warn private companies to not allow these people on the track, or as instructors.
Every situation is unique and that is why this incident stands alone and should not be compared to what is done most first green sessions at a PCA DE. And you should not be at the track if you cannot afford the consequences. I may be complaining, but we are paying (ty Marc), and we should have a shiny and happy car at SP next week!
-- Mindy
03-13-2008, 10:14 AM
#112
Nordschleife Master
Mindy since you started this thread you can close it. Go to the top of the page and use the drop down menu called "Thread Tools" and select "Close Thread".
