purplehaze.

.....seems to be the opposite of most men I know!

You sound good for her.

- G

Apex Rex

I've got an Amazon 968 for sale if you're looking for a second track car...

cobalt

Believe you me, it has already been discussed. I wish I could but I am at my limits for now. New garage and Cindy is putting her foot down for her new kitchen she wanted for the past 9 years.

Good Luck with the sale I am sure you will get your money for it. BTW I hope this means we will be seeing you next season, guess your going to have to drive dads car huh.

Z-man

Boy that sounds familiar.... I've been delaying Mrs. Z-man's new kitchen project for a few years now.... LONGER than it took me to decide on my suspension upgrade!

Anyway, I didn't attend the VIR event this year, but I am an NNJR member. So here's my two kicks at the dead horse:

Name calling. Does it really have to be a part of the complaints? For a second there, I thought I had surfed onto the Honda Civic forums. I have no problem with folks voicing their issues with my region - some very valid arguments have been posted here. But the game of "pile on the rabbit" (both with Knute and NNJR in general) doesn't help to get the point across -- it only diminishes the points you are trying to make.

Passing signals. That's the rule. I'd be fine with doing away with this rule, but until that happens, passing must be coordinated with a point-by. BKS: I must ask: how long was Knute holding you up? A lap? Two laps? Just a short section of track? Maybe he didn't give you a point by soon enough, but I suspect that he would have had his hand out the window at the next opportunity. Let's face it - we're all humans out there -- sometimes we either miss the opportunity to give a point by, or sometimes our egos are so big that we don't have room to get our arms out the window. Similarly, sometimes our egos are so big, we don't have room to lift our foot off the gas and apply the brakes.

Bottom line is: we all share the same track out there -- and given that we all don't travel at the same pace, faster drivers are going to come up on slower ones. A little patience and respect on both sides of that equation goes a long way...

-Z-man.

BrianKeithSmith

ZMan - my point was this - he looked dead at me in the mirror as I approached him, didn't give a signal, then when I pulled in the pits, made a fuss about it, to me...

So my point was I flying up on his quarter panel, he looked in the drivers mirror dead at me, decided not to give the signal (not sure why, we had plenty of room on the bridge straight), then decided to fuss at me for passing him without a signal. My momentum was there, so I finished off the pass. It was the easiest most straight forward thing to do.

Right/Wrong??? who knows... it totally depends on the situation. Since my car is a momentum car, I preferred to keep my momentum

At least he can't use the excuse "I didn't know you were there!" because he turned his head and looked right into the mirror - on a straight...

Should it be called out, sure, why not... He's a freakin CI. If they are specifically stating in the meetings to work together, give passing signals surely and swiftly, and he's one of the ones delivering that message and not holding up to his end of the deal, then sure, its cool to call him out. I'd expect someone to do it to me - it would wake me up and get me back in the proper frame of mind...

smlporsche

Now hold on Brian. Don't go stealing my excuses...you've got plenty of your own to use!

Z-man

Well, technically, you were wrong. A drover seeing a car behind him isn't the same as a point-by. For whatever reason, valid or not, he didn't give you a point-by.

What would have been the harm in lifting and tucking in behind him until the next passing zone?

I'm just playing devil's advocate here...

-Z

TD in DC

Well so will I. Why is it ONLY the person who is behind that is at fault? I think that a person who fails to give a point-by, which is even worse when they saw, or fails to lift after pointing by, shares at least as much, if not greater, share of the blame. Afterall, a successful pass without a signal doesn't hurt anyone. (the danger, of course, is that the person will not see that he or she is being passed and then there could be an accident). By contrast, when someone fails to point you by or fails to lift, it makes the other driver/drivers behind them angry and/or frustrated, and there is nothing more dangerous for EVERYONE than a bunch of pissed off people in race cars in an environment where they are not supposed to race. It is like parading Salma Hayek around naked at a Sexual Addicts Anonymous meeting. It just ain't right.

If you hauled in people who didn't point by and talked to them rather than making everyone else pit in or make space, the problems should get better. If, after repeated violations (everyone makes mistakes so the first time should be a gentle reminder), then the person can sit out a session and spend it watching all the other cars while sitting in the pit out with a dunce cap, whether CI or no CI.

BrianKeithSmith

TD gets it...

Brian P

Hopefully the second part (egos so big) is never true - that simply means somebody is willfully choosing not to let people pass.

On the first part, basically the only way there wouldn't be time is if the passee didn't realize that there was a passer until it was too late to let the person around. Sure, people are human, and sometimes they don't see this stuff. However, that's where I think there is a huge difference between racers and DE'ers. In a race, you ALWAYS need to know who is around you and who is coming up on you. Otherwise it's very easy to cause an accident. In a DE, if you wanted to, you could drive the entire session without checking your mirrors and not have to worry about someone sneaking up on you.

Bull

Yep!

Z-man

Drive around in a 944 at a PCA event, and you'll see that indeed, there are egos that prevent drovers from getting their hand out the window. Either that, or Guards Red must look very asphalt-colored in the mirrors of 911's...

Blame for what? Not playing nice?

If there is a slow driver out there that continually doesn't give a passing signal, hopefully there will be enough participants out there who will let the CI's know. But it works both ways -- if there is a driver out there who constantly passes without a signal, enough drivers will report this to the CI's, and said driver will get a talking to. That said, in my opinion, it is far easier to spot a driver passing without a signal, than spotting a driver who doesn't give point-bys quick enough. Is this a double standard? Definately a grey area.

A slower driver doesn't have to give a pass if he isn't comfortable to do so. Unfortunately, there are those who abuse this "comfort level." But a faster driver must wait for the pass signal. And there are those who abuse this as well.

I think I've beaten this dead horse enough myself. Apologies for the circular arguments.

-Z-man.

Bull

Come on Z! Back to the specifics at hand. The specific problem involved a CI in the Red run group!!! Who do you report that to???? If "isn't comfortable" applies, God help us!

Brian P

Hey, I did say "hopefully".

I can buy that argument for somebody who is still in an instructed group and maybe someone who has recently been promoted to white. But shouldn't we really be expecting an instructor to be comfortable giving pass signals on all parts of the track?

BobbyC

Z-Man, since you brought up "name calling" and defense of this particular CI's behavior...read this and instead of attacking the victims here go back and effect a change at NNJR!


First day, last session, Blue-White run group, I'm driving with an instructor. At Oak Tree I can't find 2nd gear, fumble a bit, finally found gear and moved on...Black Flagged.

Come into the pits to be "greeted" by Knute, here's the conversation:

Knute: So you almost collected a bunch of cars back there. What's your problem?

Me: Sorry about that, couldn't find 2nd gear.

Knute: With a smirk, Why couldn't you find the gear?

Me: Dunno, I just couldn't.

Knute: Whaddya mean you don't know? It's not that difficult to shift. See, I can shift with just a light touch with my 2 fingers.

Me: Ok, I got it.

Knute: No, I tell you what your problem is. You were not paying attention and in a hurry.

Me: OK...

Knute: So how are you going to fix it?

Me: OK, I got it will make sure I find gear.

Knute: Yes, make sure! Don't want see this pretty car messed up and anyone get hurt!!!

I kept saying OK...OK...OK..and he kept on berating with a few more choice words.

Words perhaps can't fully describe the tone, the body language, and the negative attitude that had me fuming in these couple of minutes. I contained my anger. My instructor remained silent and was shaking his head.

So off we went into my next lap. Less than half a minute later I went off into the grass in a cloud of dust at T4! Fortunately, no bent metal.

Both my instructor and I knew immediately what just happened. I was angry and upset, not focused, came in too hot and that was that. Sure going off was my fault. In hindsight I should have just gone into the paddock to cool off from the encounter. Yes, going off was all my own fault.

However, there's no excuse or justification for rudeness and disrespect towards participants. It is after all Driver's Education...a place to learn. No?