Brian P

It's got to be a tough job being DE chair with so many conflicting interests. On one hand, you want to allow as many people in as possible so that you aren't turning away members. On the other hand, you want to keep run groups small so that those who are accepted don't spend their entire event stuck in traffic jams. Surely there is a critical mass number (and that number is dependent on skill level), but finding that number is challenging.

I know that PCA had published a recommended run group size with X cars per mile and that X changed based on run group skill level. The last time I saw the recommendations, they seemed a bit conservative. I'd be curious to hear what people think the optimum number is for each run group.

As far as passing without a signal... We all know it shouldn't be done, but I remember that I was at a classroom session of one region (and I honestly forget which region it was) where they said that it shouldn't happen and both drivers would be spoken to. However, if they had to place percentage blames on people, the person doing the pass is about 25% to blame and the guy being passed is 75% of the blame. I basically agree with this.

If somebody (and this is especially true at the red/black run group level) can be safely passed (edit: on a straight - not dive bombed) without a signal, this means one of two things.

1) The guy is clueless about traffic around him and/or might be over his head by focusing on what's in front of him rather than his entire environment. He should take at least the rest of the run off and regroup mentally.

2) The guy is a jerk and is intentionally not letting people pass him. The person should take at least one run off and possibly be told to take the rest of the event off.

I'm trying to think of a scenario where someone could be easily and safely passed but that someone consistenly does not give a pass signal and we would deem it excusable. Obviously if there is a dangerous situation ahead, the car shouldn't give a signal, but on a clear track, is there a valid situation that a signal shouldn't be given?

I know that personally if someone passed me without a signal and I was surprised by it, I would question my own skills more than the passer's skills. I'd be very concerned about why I didn't see the car in question. Granted, what the passer did is dangerous and can easily cause an accident, but I really need to be aware of all traffic around me.

FYI, I have had times approaching the end of a straight going into a turn where I intended to let one or two cars pass me and an extra car decided that I had given an extra pass signal. I'm guessing that this was not the type of pass that was taken, but if it was that's pretty dangerous. Even then, however, the guy in front should really be aware of traffic around him. Sure, you shouldn't expect a guy to dive bomb you at a DE, but what if the guy had some brake failure? Should you just turn into him, or should you be aware enough to realize that he'll take you out if you turn into him and instead take avoidance measures?

smlporsche

A couple of generalized comments (and I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn last night) but I have been privy to the cost associated with DE's particularly at VIR.

VIR is one of the most expensive tracks on the East Coast with the notable exception of Daytona it may be tied for the most expensive.
In addition to the basic track rental you have to pay for corner workers, Medical stafff, tow trucks and VIR even now charges for the cones at the corners. Then factor in food, T shirts and other goodies and you're into some real coin. And larger clubs (i.e. multiple events) would trip the IRS wire and they would indeed have to pay taxes on the event...

That having been said I would never run at an event where amatuers were responsible for sending me out on a track where cars running well into the triple digets would come up on me almost blindly. That is just not just good risk management and the cost to fix that is negligeable compared to the overall expenses.

cobalt

This was Russ's last event as track chair and he was trying to make it work for everyone. We will see what the new chair does differently. He did a great job organizing many other fun events.\

I agree I had an over zealous GT3 try passing me on the inside of turn 14. glad I had my eyes open and took it wide otherwise we would have had an issue.

sbarton

I think during the drivers meeting more time should be spent on emphasizing the importance of courteous and prompt point by's and the ramifications of not following those rules. Explain that drivers that fail to give prompt point by's will be black flagged and spoken too. If a driver passes w/o a point by, both drivers should be black flagged, not just the passing driver. The flagger who calls in the pass should be responsible for calling in both car numbers.

NNJR does not do this. Instead they ask the drivers to report people who are not giving point by's. This is VERY hard to do since car numbers are on the sides of the car and you are usually stuck behind them. Even if you do get a glimpse of their numbers and can read it, you then have to try to remember the correct numbers (car description will not do) until the end of session and then report it to the chief. This is not an effective or appropriate way to police students who are constantly ignoring their mirrors!


During both Sat and Sun drivers meetings the stewards complained about aggressive driving. From what I saw, I believe part of the reasons some drivers were overly aggressive was to force a point by from drivers who where taking too long to give point by's. This seems confirmed by sheer number of complaints in this thread about lack of point by’s.
If you can increase the point by's by punishing those who fail to give them, you could decrease some of the aggressive driving. Just a thought.


Cobalt, could you bring these issues up at the next meeting as well?
Thanks. <end></end>

-Scott

ZAPmobile

+1000

Sean F

Don't waste your time guys, I have come to the conclusion that the only solution to problem of no point bys in DE's is to go racing

Jimbo951

+1

RedlineMan

Well, of COURSE;

Racing being the answer to EVERYTHING.

What is needed to fix a lack of good passing etiquette is for;

1) Sanctioning bodies to realize that it is the biggest cause of road rage, AND poor event quality.
2) Sanctioning bodies to GET SERIOUS about eliminating it by whatever means necessary (black flags, exclusion, expulsion, etc.), and that NO ONE be held to any different standard.
3) Flaggers to get SERIOUS about helping sanctioning bodies deal with this by observing it, and reporting it promptly.

The only time I have ever been passed by someone whom I did not signal is when someone decided to "tag along" behind others whom I HAD... CLEARLY. That would equal exactly twice in 15 years, and I have made it a point to find them and tell them never to do it again, IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS. I have never pissed anyone off - to my knowledge - because I give signals often and quickly. I have never NOT been aware that I was getting passed, regardless of whether it was signaled or not.

Seems like a good model for handling it.

I will post a little story I have written about passing. https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...d.php?t=391873

38D

Maybe you should try it first, and form an opinion second?


I think those are all good suggestions. The only issue I see is that poor signal giver that spawned this whole thread is one of the NNJR CIs. When one of the people in charge can't give good signals, that's a bit of a sticky wicket...

I will say that I personally had no issues getting any signals at my last NNJR event at the Glen (and that includes Knute). Of course a rubystone car with a giant green arrow on the hood is kinda hard to miss...

2000gt3cup

The only issue I see is that poor signal giver that spawned this whole thread is one of the NNJR CIs. When one of the people in charge can't give good signals, that's a bit of a sticky wicket...

[/QUOTE]

there are several groups that BLACK FLAG those who are not giving proper and timely passing signals.. Schattenbaum is for one... that seems to be the right decision..and they do not seem to have a problem at least the times I ran with them last year..

Brian P

I agree with this. Generally I've had very few troubles with the black and red run groups when I'm driving with NNJR. The times I have had troubles, it has usually been with out of region drivers. Even then, things usually sort themselves out by lunchtime on the first day.

Bull

there are several groups that BLACK FLAG those who are not giving proper and timely passing signals.. Schattenbaum is for one... that seems to be the right decision..and they do not seem to have a problem at least the times I ran with them last year..[/QUOTE]

I have never had a problem with Schattenbaum events either. Of course, I believe they understand the principle of the "implied signal"!

BrianKeithSmith

That's what me and A930Rocket work off of. We don't have to actually see hand out the window. Any abnormal movement inside the cockpit that's up ahead - that's a signal!



When I see their shoulder start to move, that translates into pedal to the floor in my brain

Its like me and A930Rocket use to say, it's like Pavlov's Dog - its a conditioned response...

Brian

LVDell

So you are drooling when you get the pass?

BrianKeithSmith

pretty much...