mark kibort

now that was funny!

You guys gave some great feed back. I know how i saw the incident. (there wasnt an incident) however, i was very blunt with the driver of the S2000, about it being two guys just in the same area of turn fighting for position. However, i thought it would be a good topic of discussion here, just to get some unbiased views. Of course its aways the other guys fault .

The more we do this sport the more we learn. Personally, I truely think it was two guys close racing with some very minor contact. I wouldnt have even insisted on the corner, if i hadnt been ahead at turn in. The point here is that I could probably avoided the situation by driving a little deeper and taking away a set of contact chances as was suggested.

Its club racing. its pretty easy to drive clean. But, the more heated the battle, the closer the racing, the more there is a chance a little "rubbin'" can happen

But your right, after running in a handful of SpeedGT races, and knowing a bunch of the drivers, if they (or any of the Miata drivers) saw that footage and heard someone was complaing about contact, I think it would be hard to stop them from laughing.

M (taking a little more of the blame for the contact) K


PS Just think of how busy the SCCA officals would be if all these guys protested
check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm__88baUyI&NR=1

dsmith

i'm curious on this one, since i always use the rule of once i'm alongside a car, at least up to the driver's door, before a turn, it's mine. how i execute the pass is to hold off the competitor's turn-in. all of which has been mentioned here.

what part of the GCR are you interpreting as siding with the guy on the outside (i'm not saying your point or mine is/isn't correct)? only thing i see is that the corner wasn't very sharp, so 2 wide looked very possible. however, here's what i read from 5.6 of the GCR:

"Abrupt changes in direction so as to impede or affect the path of a car attempting to overtake or pass may be interpreted by Officials as an attempt to deprive a fellow competitor of his right to "racing room".

i think the s2000 impeded the pass and should have backed out before Mark. the GCR is pretty vague on this, unlike the NASA rules. sounds like SCCA did not side with the s2000.
David

Jim Child

The current NASA CCR defines racing room in most cases as "at least 3/4 of one car width."

krazik

LOL damn mark, the other thread wasn't enuf? I dropped my protest and apologized for it. I was pissed post race for losing 2 spots in the laps post contact. You could (or not it's ok to me) apolgize to me for hitting me and it's all over. You and I have raced frequently nose to tail for 2 years.

You fail to point out like you did in the other thread that your car had a broken endlink and was loose. Full race video is encoding now so you can see some of your offroading before you hit me -and- in your video which you're encouraged to post clearly shows you were back on the gas when you hit me in my door/rear wheel. There was nothing from stopping you from using a little brake or no gas to tighten up your arc in the corner to give me more room. And I was at the edge of the racing surface. If I went any wider I would have been black flagged by the race officials for using the "forbidden pavement" at the exit of T14. I might have been able to find another 2 inches without hitting the tire "piles", but you had 30' feet inside of us to find those 2 inches too.

(other thread w/ pics of marks car: https://rennlist.com/forums/928-forum/354266-scca-ite-race-at-thunderhill-this-weekend-5-25-race-report-update.html)

The protest was stupid, dropped and I've already said sorry.
-Rylan

mark kibort

Rylan,
unlike you , i review all my races to learn from any mistakes and to find ways to go faster. The other thread was biased, if not only by the fact most of those folks know me. On this race thread, you may notice some very objective opinions. If you are still in denial, thats fine. I appreicate the appology about the protest. The question posted here was only an acid test of my own conclusions. As it turns out, i am a little more responsible for the hit than i gave my self credit for, and can and will tell you that straight up. However, it had nothing to do with "tightening of my arc" it had to do with decision making. the risk didnt warrant the reward, as you pressed on to the outside. (your risk) I could have backed out, but it wouldnt have been in the arc, that speed was determined, as you can hear and see full throttle on my AFR meter. the arc was determined by turn in speed and initial exit speed. i tried to make an input to give more room and certainly you could have given a couple of more inches as well. a black flag wouldnt be given for using the road for contact avoidance. thats pretty lame to assume that. If thats what kept you from going wide enough, well 'nuf said there. yes, i had more like 10 feet to the inside, but it may have well been a mile, as Mr Centrifugal could care less.

Certainly, i dont like the fact that we touched. Ive had a lot of tight battles and this one ended slightly bad. Hundreds of others could have ended in contact, but didnt. Its the risk we take in this sport. you know my record on the track over the last 10 years.

my broken frame mounts for the swaybar was a non issue. It effected power-on traction only. (excessve body roll causing rear wheel spin like an open diff) it effected high speed handling slightly, but was not an issue in the contact. as i mentioned. my arc path was determined by our high speed entrance to turn 14. I would think you could have judged the fact that i was not going to back out by the way we deeply traveled into the brake zone for turn14 with me being a nose ahead. By seeing my video that i will post after its released from the officials, this will be clear. However, i did contribute to the contact. my decision to continue side by side turns out to be a bad one, for which i am sorry. But, it does take two to tango. you wont likely see the 'ole holbert car exposed like that again. But then again, it depends on how much fun we are having

This racing forum is for discussions like this. it wasnt ment to roast you or to say " i told you so". In fact, quite the opposite happenend. read my last post.

See you at the next race. Here is to close racing but no-touchy

mk

Geo

David, it's a bit late 1:40am, so please forgive me for not looking in the GCR tonight to be 100% accurate, but I know there is other mention of a competitor's right to racing room and Rylan (guy on the outside) is entitled to it in this case.

In the specific passage you cite it mentions abrupt changes in direction. In this case, that does not apply so I would not side with your conclusion. Furthermore, I see ZERO reason for Rylan to back out just because Mark was inside. BFD. You're calling for a "gimme." I see no valid reason for Mark hitting Rylan (I fully understand however that it happens in racing - hey it's not easy - it's not supposed to be). If you think it's OK, I don't see how that differs from just nailing anybody who happens to occupy real estate you want.

Lastly, Rylan in no way deprived Mark of racing room. As I see it, it's the other way around. Rylan had inches to work with and Mark had many feet, yet Mark still tried to get some of the space Rylan was in. To me that is the very definition of depriving a competitor of racing room.

dsmith

looks like it's actually 6.8, not 5.6. there's only 4 small paragraphs on driver conduct. here's another:
"the overtaken driver has the responsibility to be aware that he or she is being overtaken and not to impede the overtaking car. the overtaken car should not block."

George, to your point on racing room, the NASA GCR is quite clear in supporting your view,and i would have to agree that officials would probably use its figure 2 to determine that fault mostly lay with Mark. oh well, i would have backed off in either position to avoid body work, but i'm a puss!

Figure 2
Car B is attempting to pass Car A going into a left-hand corner. There is contact
between the two cars at point 3. Car B does have its front wheel next to the driver of Car A and therefore does have a right to be there. However, Car A leaves Car B more than enough room to make the pass. Car B has an obligation to make the pass without contact. Therefore the fault is placed on Car B.

John Brown

Minor contact etc etc. But Geo is correct. The overtaking car must complete the pass. Going deep as Geo suggested to take control of the line. Or continuing the pass side x side as was actually done.

smlporsche

Interesting thread and post from some of the more experienced racers in this group.

I sure would like to see the in car video from Mark's car to gain some more perspective...

mark kibort

This is a tough one, as minor as the contact was. However, if i was in Rylan's position, i would have judged the entrance speed of BOTH of the cars and predicted the exit lines of both my car to pass on the outside and the inside car (mine, in the video). Based on what i saw and experienced, both of us were deep into the right turn #14. with a nose ahead at turn in, the 928 went into the turn in the lead. This is clear to see on the 928 video. this is a little different than Dsmith quoted. the 928 was the overtaking car and actaully had the S2000 front wheel at the driver door at turn in. The outside car, Rylan now has a choice to risk an outside re-pass based on what he has seen, and neither cars based on the rules, are required to back out. my line was determined by entrance speed. there was no room to the inside that i could have used by "backing out" I could have concieded the turn, but thats not what is being suggested. rylan did have a few more inches to the outside, and was more worried about a precieved violation by going wider over the birm near the boarder tires. Had he not had that perception, he could have given us both another few inches and no contact would have happend, and i wouldnt have backed out after the contact. However, it would have been interesting to see where we would have ended up at the exit of the next turn ! (turn 15)

Its a tough one, thats why i though it would be good for a discussion here on the race thread.

mk

George A

Guys, this is where the whole "owning the corner" concept really gets me. I think that the only way you really own the corner is when there is no one else there. Even just having the nose in there counts as being there and having equal right. That's just me... I actually like side by side racing. At my last two cr's, I've gone nearly a full lap side by side with different drivers without incident. Both of us gave just enough room. To me, that's what racing should be about.

G.

A.Wayne

LOL, you would have scared the shhhhister out of me for a full lap

George A

Hell, I scared the **** out of myself, but I knew I (and they) had no room for error. That's the risk you take when neither is willing to concede. But, boy it sure was fun......

G.

Bryan Watts

I would place the blame on you...the S2000 is not obligated to give you anything other than room for your car to fit on the inside. In my opinion, you are obligated to drive in such a way that you can both share the track if you go into a turn side-by-side with another car. He gave you room at turn-in, apex, and track out...you should have altered your speed and line so as not to need to hit him in order to get through the turn. Having you nose a couple feet ahead at turn-in doesn't give you the right to a full-track out if he has the speed and the ***** to hang it out on the outside of the turn and race you through the corner.

In the end, you could have forced his hand and not allowed him the chance to stay beside you by waiting to turn-in until later...but, if he were smart, he would have seen it coming, over-slowed, and crossed behind you to exit on the inside to try to beat you to the next turn.

I don't know whether the protest is valid or not, but if I were him, I'd be upset that I've gotta go home and repair body damage for an incident that could have easily been avoided. He was racing hard and taking up the outside line as he has every right too since you chose to make the pass on the inside and didn't get far enough ahead to guarantee yourself a full track out.

mark kibort

More valid points.

The one thing not shown, was how far he was tracking out. From my view, it did look like he pinched me off a bit and could have tracked out a few more inches. Aain, i think it really a matter of some good close racing and some very slight contact. In SCCA we are not 13/13, but we are expected to drive like it.
We all have close ones. The objective of review of our incidents is to understand them so we dont get in the same situation again, or worse, have them turn into accidents the next time.

MK

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