racing incident or someone at fault? List opinon
06-04-2007, 01:42 PM
#61
Race Director
Originally Posted by SundayDriver
I don't know if they still do this, but at one time, NASA defined racing room as 1/2 car width.
It is actually 3/4 of a car with if there is not solid barrier off track. If there is grass, dirt, etc off track then you need to leave 3/4 of car with and the expectation is one car may need to put 2 off to prevent contact. If there is wall there then you need to leave 1 car width as you can't run the other car into the wall. You can however make a pass/defend a pass and leave 3/4 of car width for the other car. If that other car chooses to stay on it ther are expected to use the dirt. Otherwise backout. That is legal.
In fact in my last NASA race I competitor did that to me. I had a bit of run and stuck my nose in. He shut the door (my front tire just at his rear) and gave me 3/4 of space appraching the apex. Not enough get the pass done in that place, but enough to avoid contact. I did not have the pass move and when 2 off over the crub and tucked in to continue to fight. I have not issue with move as I was tring to pass in non-typical area with some risk. My rule of thumb is that if you are trying to pass in non-typical area be ready to get the door closed HARD on you. By the same token of some guy goes in passes you on inside and you want stay on the outside be ready to run out of room at track out.
06-04-2007, 01:56 PM
#62
Race Director
Originally Posted by mark kibort
The one thing not shown, was how far he was tracking out. From my view, it did look like he pinched me off a bit and could have tracked out a few more inches.
You could have prevented his turn-in and you didn't and that allowed him the outside line. He allowed you to track out fairly well, but just as you could have prevented his turn-in, he could have prevented ANY track out and forced you low because it's not kosher to hit someone simply because they occupy the real estate you desire. If he wanted to hold a tight outside line, that would have been his prerogative as long as he gave you one inside lane. In the end that would have served neither of you very well so I'm sure that's why he didn't do it, but he could take any outside line he liked and it would still be incumbent upon you not to make contact.
06-04-2007, 02:02 PM
#63
Race Director
Good to know that NASA expects you to put two off. I'll make sure if I'm on the outside of someone to leave myself plenty of space to the edge of the track. The person on the outside essentially controls that part of the track. I would NEVER expect to have to put two off on the outside to avoid some bozo from hitting me. I'd leave plenty of room on the outside just in case some bozo DID hit me so I actually had some traction to avoid going four off.
06-04-2007, 02:08 PM
#64
Race Director
Mark,
I have not seen the viedo, but
Was that mark from the S2000's front or rear tire?
If it was his front tire he should have backed out.
If it was his rear tire... well you may have had him at turn in, but he got you back on the way out and won back the corner. . Your fault for failing to leave him room. I know you said your line was set at turn in. I am sure it was, but if he came back and took the lead on the way out you needed to leave him space. You can't ever expect the car infront of you to back out on the exit of a corner like that. If you were in front at track out and that was the S2000's front tire he should have lifted or hit the grass. Risky move by the S2000 to comeback either way.
In my book it it is that simple. It does appear very much to be incidental contact in a racing incident. When racing close and hard all it takes is a small error.
06-04-2007, 02:10 PM
#65
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I don't understand the concept of "my corner / your corner" etc. I believe that if you poke your nose inside on a corner than you darn well better be able to maintain the that tight inside line ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE TURN. You have to assume that the other car WILL be beside you all the way through. They can't turn in on you and you can't track out on them - even Steven....
The yielding of the turn just doesn't make sense - where is the car supposed to go when he gives this car room to track out - since he's carrying about the same speed - does he just vaporize?
I've heard this argument plenty of times before and it seems kinda weenie to say "it's mine" without using car control skills, race craft, setting up for the next straight / corner, etc and just expecting someone to "concede" because you poked your nose in and got it to an arbitrary place on their car - door, mirror, even with, etc.
Side by side racing CAN occur in a corner and not just on the straights - which is why folks battling run slower - because they have to alter their line.... I've seen instances where 2 racers went side by side for 3 corners - they touched MIRRORS and DECALS - and finally one got a better launch and was on the outside instead of the inside and then dropped in behind. Afterward - they joked that they were about 1/8" too close and that it was some of the best side by side battles they had had. The car that was eventually passed said "I wasn't going to just GIVE it to you!" and the car that hung on the outside for three turns and finally made the pass said "I didn't EXPECT you too!"
I kinda think that's is what it's all about.
The yielding of the turn just doesn't make sense - where is the car supposed to go when he gives this car room to track out - since he's carrying about the same speed - does he just vaporize?
I've heard this argument plenty of times before and it seems kinda weenie to say "it's mine" without using car control skills, race craft, setting up for the next straight / corner, etc and just expecting someone to "concede" because you poked your nose in and got it to an arbitrary place on their car - door, mirror, even with, etc.
Side by side racing CAN occur in a corner and not just on the straights - which is why folks battling run slower - because they have to alter their line.... I've seen instances where 2 racers went side by side for 3 corners - they touched MIRRORS and DECALS - and finally one got a better launch and was on the outside instead of the inside and then dropped in behind. Afterward - they joked that they were about 1/8" too close and that it was some of the best side by side battles they had had. The car that was eventually passed said "I wasn't going to just GIVE it to you!" and the car that hung on the outside for three turns and finally made the pass said "I didn't EXPECT you too!"
I kinda think that's is what it's all about.
06-04-2007, 02:20 PM
#66
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Originally Posted by Janni
I don't understand the concept of "my corner / your corner" etc. I believe that if you poke your nose inside on a corner than you darn well better be able to maintain the that tight inside line ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE TURN. You have to assume that the other car WILL be beside you all the way through. They can't turn in on you and you can't track out on them - even Steven....
Originally Posted by M758
Was that mark from the S2000's front or rear tire?
06-04-2007, 02:40 PM
#67
Race Director
Originally Posted by Janni
I don't understand the concept of "my corner / your corner" etc. I believe that if you poke your nose inside on a corner than you darn well better be able to maintain the that tight inside line ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE TURN. You have to assume that the other car WILL be beside you all the way through. They can't turn in on you and you can't track out on them - even Steven....
The yielding of the turn just doesn't make sense - where is the car supposed to go when he gives this car room to track out - since he's carrying about the same speed - does he just vaporize?
I've heard this argument plenty of times before and it seems kinda weenie to say "it's mine" without using car control skills, race craft, setting up for the next straight / corner, etc and just expecting someone to "concede" because you poked your nose in and got it to an arbitrary place on their car - door, mirror, even with, etc.
Side by side racing CAN occur in a corner and not just on the straights - which is why folks battling run slower - because they have to alter their line.... I've seen instances where 2 racers went side by side for 3 corners - they touched MIRRORS and DECALS - and finally one got a better launch and was on the outside instead of the inside and then dropped in behind. Afterward - they joked that they were about 1/8" too close and that it was some of the best side by side battles they had had. The car that was eventually passed said "I wasn't going to just GIVE it to you!" and the car that hung on the outside for three turns and finally made the pass said "I didn't EXPECT you too!"
I kinda think that's is what it's all about.
The yielding of the turn just doesn't make sense - where is the car supposed to go when he gives this car room to track out - since he's carrying about the same speed - does he just vaporize?
I've heard this argument plenty of times before and it seems kinda weenie to say "it's mine" without using car control skills, race craft, setting up for the next straight / corner, etc and just expecting someone to "concede" because you poked your nose in and got it to an arbitrary place on their car - door, mirror, even with, etc.
Side by side racing CAN occur in a corner and not just on the straights - which is why folks battling run slower - because they have to alter their line.... I've seen instances where 2 racers went side by side for 3 corners - they touched MIRRORS and DECALS - and finally one got a better launch and was on the outside instead of the inside and then dropped in behind. Afterward - they joked that they were about 1/8" too close and that it was some of the best side by side battles they had had. The car that was eventually passed said "I wasn't going to just GIVE it to you!" and the car that hung on the outside for three turns and finally made the pass said "I didn't EXPECT you too!"
I kinda think that's is what it's all about.
Actually, I thought the hokey-pokey was what it was all about....
06-04-2007, 03:54 PM
#68
This thread is extremely interesting to me as a rookie.
During the few race weekends I have particpated in (three weekends total), I have had people come down on me, or track out into me, over and over and over again despite the fact that I was next to them. I am 100% certain that there position was that they "owned" the corner since they didn't think my nose was to the front seam of the door (sometimes it was pretty damned close to that). This taught me a lesson: Now I either go in to make a very decisive pass where I make certain they know I am there and will not be going anywhere, or I don't stick my nose in in the first place.
But the trouble comes in when deciding how agressive I can be about giving others racing room. If I am the passer, I will give the passee racing room (full car width -- none of this 3/4 bit for amateurs like me) for the whole length of the corner.
By contrast, if I am the potential passee, I now am much more likely to close the door on someone (early, though), since it is done CONSTANTLY to me. I am not talking about blocking, but rather coming down to the apex where I want to be anyway. If I gave full car racing room on the inside every time a car with similar lap times or HP got their nose near my rear quarter, I would get owned constantly. My thinking is that if the guy is not really next to me at the point that I am ready to make my turn-in, he has no right to alter my racing line. I don't really think of it as who owns the corner but more like a question about what the guy will have to do in response to my move: If he has nowhere to go and must take aggressive braking, then I will leave him space. On the other hand, if he merely has to slow up or mildly brake, he should expect that if he is thinking about sticking his nose in, right?
Be kind, I am a newbie trying to learn here, and I want nothing more to race cleanly and win the "right" way.
During the few race weekends I have particpated in (three weekends total), I have had people come down on me, or track out into me, over and over and over again despite the fact that I was next to them. I am 100% certain that there position was that they "owned" the corner since they didn't think my nose was to the front seam of the door (sometimes it was pretty damned close to that). This taught me a lesson: Now I either go in to make a very decisive pass where I make certain they know I am there and will not be going anywhere, or I don't stick my nose in in the first place.
But the trouble comes in when deciding how agressive I can be about giving others racing room. If I am the passer, I will give the passee racing room (full car width -- none of this 3/4 bit for amateurs like me) for the whole length of the corner.
By contrast, if I am the potential passee, I now am much more likely to close the door on someone (early, though), since it is done CONSTANTLY to me. I am not talking about blocking, but rather coming down to the apex where I want to be anyway. If I gave full car racing room on the inside every time a car with similar lap times or HP got their nose near my rear quarter, I would get owned constantly. My thinking is that if the guy is not really next to me at the point that I am ready to make my turn-in, he has no right to alter my racing line. I don't really think of it as who owns the corner but more like a question about what the guy will have to do in response to my move: If he has nowhere to go and must take aggressive braking, then I will leave him space. On the other hand, if he merely has to slow up or mildly brake, he should expect that if he is thinking about sticking his nose in, right?
Be kind, I am a newbie trying to learn here, and I want nothing more to race cleanly and win the "right" way.
06-04-2007, 04:09 PM
#69
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Originally Posted by TD in DC
During the few race weekends I have particpated in (three weekends total), I have had people come down on me, or track out into me, over and over and over again despite the fact that I was next to them. I am 100% certain that there position was that they "owned" the corner since they didn't think my nose was to the front seam of the door (sometimes it was pretty damned close to that).
If I'm on the inside and taking away the apex in a SCCA race and the outside driver decides to turn down on me, I'm going to hold my ground and punt him off the track. If I'm on the inside and a driver turns down on me in a 13/13 series, I'm going to do everything I can to avoid the contact, including slowing down a LOT, even though I think it's a crap move by the other car.
If I'm on the outside and another car is somewhat alongside of me on the inside, I'll always leave room for the driver on the inside to navigate the corner (though that room may require he use the curbing), but that may be ALL the room I leave him. He chose his line and I chose mine by not moving inside before he made his move...we have the right to our lines through the turn...he has an advantage in that he has a shorter way around the turn and "clean" track at the apex, while I have the advantage of a better track out. I expect the same from other drivers. No one has the "right" to take a qualifying line through a turn solely because their nose is alongside some arbitrary point on the car they are trying to pass.
06-04-2007, 04:24 PM
#71
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Originally Posted by Bryan Watts
No one has the "right" to take a qualifying line through a turn solely because their nose is alongside some arbitrary point on the car they are trying to pass.
06-04-2007, 04:27 PM
#72
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by Bryan Watts
No one has the "right" to take a qualifying line through a turn solely because their nose is alongside some arbitrary point on the car they are trying to pass.
06-04-2007, 04:36 PM
#74
Race Director
TD,
In my mind club level racing is about being smart and knowing when to throw in the towel in certain places. I have some 70 races under my belt in some 5 years of racing. During that time I have had two incidents of contact between myself and other cars in a race setting. Both were in passing attempts and both result in minor mostly consmetic contact. First was result of my making a late pass, taking the spot, but the locking the brakes and sliding through. Car along side thought I was going to turn and turned right into my passenger's door. Second one was on another pass, but similar to Mark it was pass/pass back type thing. I pulled along side in the inside of a fast left hander. I left room on the exit since although in front there still alot of overlap. On the entry to the right hander I stayed wide with a ton more speed and left what I figured was 7/8 to 1 car width on the inside as he had to have place to go. Unfortunaltly under braking the other slid out a little we had very light contact simlar to Mark's with his front to my front just behind the front tire.
Result is that both were considered "racing incidents". After the races I spoke with both drivers and we came to agree on what happened although fault was never "assigned". What I learned from both is that when you take risks things happen. In the first I was too ambitious and when I locked the brakes my only hope was to assume the other guy would not hit me. I put myself in an bad place and that was my fault. Contact could have been avoided had been decisions been made by both drivers.
In the second one I knew it was a risky move, but I had to take it given what was going on in the race. I left room for the other driver and I feel he should have given up, but failed to do so and contact resulted. The reason for this brings my to my main point.
Safe clean passing both defending and making passes is much more than who's nose is front of who's. You need to be aware of what corner you are in and how this changes the standard rules. As you know by now there are easy places to pass and there are hard places to pass. If you try to pass a car where they do not expect it you as the passer need to be READY to get chopped at any time. Sure you can complain about who's nose was where, but in the end you car may be wrecked as a result. In some cases you can stongly defend a corner since is its very hard to pull of a pass there. That means you pretty much know some sticking a nose in there is just looking to spook you and get you off line.
Hey I do it all the time to noobs and even to experience guys just looking for a reaction. I may have run, but I know I can't pull off a pass without "help". That help is the competitor giving the old "Ole" and that 1 car width to steal the spot. If you are chasing a car you need to try these passes every now and then just to get them thinking. Of course be ready for it not to work.
Then there are times that I also will give an easy pass because I know I have been beat. Rather than try to risk it and fight it I just tuck in behind so as to no lose too much ground and try to set-up another place. In on place doing this well can allow you to pull off the old over/under move. They go in deep and a wide line on exit where you cut in behind and take tight exit to have the inside on the way out. There are other times I have just said... "He ain't going to make that corner that fast" and just a back out and give them room.
My point is judgement is important. It is hard to describe, but you need to have a sense for what will happen to cars as the approach a part of the track. Also you need to understand how traffic plays a role. Getting back to my 2nd car to car I felt the other guys should have backed off despite being on the inside. Why? Well my outside line put me in a perfect place to use the slower traffic infront of both of us as a pick. Had we went side by side I would pinned him between the edge of the track, my car and right behind a slower car so that by corner exit I would have passed the slower car while he would have bee behind him killing all his momentum leaving him no chance to pass me back in next braking zone. How do I know this would happen? I had has happend to me in the past and his best move would have been to slow down tuck in behind and try gather momentum to try to out brake down the end of the follwing straight away. There is a time to stay and fight hard for a spot and there times to back off regroup and come back later on.
BTW... My general rule.
Me Being passed
Their front tire to my rear tire = turn in is mine especially in fast corner where we don't brake. In slow braking corner we will see who wins the braking war.
Their front tire to my door = Share the corner although depending on the corner I may give in to that I have better chance in the next passing zone.
If we share the corner will give till I reach the edge of the track. I will hit the dirt if needed, but rather not. You pull me on the way out and I will tuck in. I pull you and I will try to drive away.
Me doing the passing
My front tire to other rear tire. Fast corners with little braking I expect get chopped. If not I will take all I can. In slow corners I may fight under brakes If I feel in can outbrake other car. If not tuck in behind at the apex.
Front tire to others door. I am here we need to share, but the faster the corner and the less the braking the more ready for being pinched off I expect. If it is a traditional passing area I expect space, if it is unusual then I may go two off if the car closes in.
Side my side at turn in. I control the corner, but we need to share it on way out. I will run you close to the edge of the track, but will not run you into the dirt if I can help it.
In my mind club level racing is about being smart and knowing when to throw in the towel in certain places. I have some 70 races under my belt in some 5 years of racing. During that time I have had two incidents of contact between myself and other cars in a race setting. Both were in passing attempts and both result in minor mostly consmetic contact. First was result of my making a late pass, taking the spot, but the locking the brakes and sliding through. Car along side thought I was going to turn and turned right into my passenger's door. Second one was on another pass, but similar to Mark it was pass/pass back type thing. I pulled along side in the inside of a fast left hander. I left room on the exit since although in front there still alot of overlap. On the entry to the right hander I stayed wide with a ton more speed and left what I figured was 7/8 to 1 car width on the inside as he had to have place to go. Unfortunaltly under braking the other slid out a little we had very light contact simlar to Mark's with his front to my front just behind the front tire.
Result is that both were considered "racing incidents". After the races I spoke with both drivers and we came to agree on what happened although fault was never "assigned". What I learned from both is that when you take risks things happen. In the first I was too ambitious and when I locked the brakes my only hope was to assume the other guy would not hit me. I put myself in an bad place and that was my fault. Contact could have been avoided had been decisions been made by both drivers.
In the second one I knew it was a risky move, but I had to take it given what was going on in the race. I left room for the other driver and I feel he should have given up, but failed to do so and contact resulted. The reason for this brings my to my main point.
Safe clean passing both defending and making passes is much more than who's nose is front of who's. You need to be aware of what corner you are in and how this changes the standard rules. As you know by now there are easy places to pass and there are hard places to pass. If you try to pass a car where they do not expect it you as the passer need to be READY to get chopped at any time. Sure you can complain about who's nose was where, but in the end you car may be wrecked as a result. In some cases you can stongly defend a corner since is its very hard to pull of a pass there. That means you pretty much know some sticking a nose in there is just looking to spook you and get you off line.
Hey I do it all the time to noobs and even to experience guys just looking for a reaction. I may have run, but I know I can't pull off a pass without "help". That help is the competitor giving the old "Ole" and that 1 car width to steal the spot. If you are chasing a car you need to try these passes every now and then just to get them thinking. Of course be ready for it not to work.
Then there are times that I also will give an easy pass because I know I have been beat. Rather than try to risk it and fight it I just tuck in behind so as to no lose too much ground and try to set-up another place. In on place doing this well can allow you to pull off the old over/under move. They go in deep and a wide line on exit where you cut in behind and take tight exit to have the inside on the way out. There are other times I have just said... "He ain't going to make that corner that fast" and just a back out and give them room.
My point is judgement is important. It is hard to describe, but you need to have a sense for what will happen to cars as the approach a part of the track. Also you need to understand how traffic plays a role. Getting back to my 2nd car to car I felt the other guys should have backed off despite being on the inside. Why? Well my outside line put me in a perfect place to use the slower traffic infront of both of us as a pick. Had we went side by side I would pinned him between the edge of the track, my car and right behind a slower car so that by corner exit I would have passed the slower car while he would have bee behind him killing all his momentum leaving him no chance to pass me back in next braking zone. How do I know this would happen? I had has happend to me in the past and his best move would have been to slow down tuck in behind and try gather momentum to try to out brake down the end of the follwing straight away. There is a time to stay and fight hard for a spot and there times to back off regroup and come back later on.
BTW... My general rule.
Me Being passed
Their front tire to my rear tire = turn in is mine especially in fast corner where we don't brake. In slow braking corner we will see who wins the braking war.
Their front tire to my door = Share the corner although depending on the corner I may give in to that I have better chance in the next passing zone.
If we share the corner will give till I reach the edge of the track. I will hit the dirt if needed, but rather not. You pull me on the way out and I will tuck in. I pull you and I will try to drive away.
Me doing the passing
My front tire to other rear tire. Fast corners with little braking I expect get chopped. If not I will take all I can. In slow corners I may fight under brakes If I feel in can outbrake other car. If not tuck in behind at the apex.
Front tire to others door. I am here we need to share, but the faster the corner and the less the braking the more ready for being pinched off I expect. If it is a traditional passing area I expect space, if it is unusual then I may go two off if the car closes in.
Side my side at turn in. I control the corner, but we need to share it on way out. I will run you close to the edge of the track, but will not run you into the dirt if I can help it.