racing incident or someone at fault? List opinon
06-04-2007, 06:35 PM
#76
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In response to the question above, the donut on marks door was my rear tire. But the issue is done to me. Mark apologized to me in email and I hope we can race for another 2 years before we meet each other in such fashion again. Minor car harm, no foul.
I still waiting for google video to process my video so I can post a smaller version. But if you want, here is a 400mb download of the full race in MPEG 4 format.
http://www.gofastvideo.com/gallery/i...-scca-ite.html
I'll post the google video link whenever they finish with it.
-Rylan
I still waiting for google video to process my video so I can post a smaller version. But if you want, here is a 400mb download of the full race in MPEG 4 format.
http://www.gofastvideo.com/gallery/i...-scca-ite.html
I'll post the google video link whenever they finish with it.
-Rylan
06-04-2007, 07:36 PM
#77
Nordschleife Master
In a pro series, that was minor contact and would never have even been protested. In PCA, I think Mark would get the 13.
I personally always give racing room. Winning a $5 trophy is not worth a $1200 fender.
I personally always give racing room. Winning a $5 trophy is not worth a $1200 fender.
06-04-2007, 07:48 PM
#78
Rennlist Member
Colin that is so true. Not to mention names, but at the Glen race a certain very well known racing teams owner came through T1 and tracked out hard running a fellow racer right into the grass. He said he had 4 inches to spare, so farming was the proper move for him. He really felt it was not intentionally running him off the track, just forgot it wasn't a Pro series.
06-04-2007, 10:34 PM
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google finally got it up. far less detail but you can watch it w/o downloading a 400mbit file.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...19323819&hl=en
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...19323819&hl=en
06-04-2007, 11:06 PM
#80
Burning Brakes
But the trouble comes in when deciding how agressive I can be about giving others racing room. If I am the passer, I will give the passee racing room (full car width -- none of this 3/4 bit for amateurs like me) for the whole length of the corner
TD - in 944 cup - this is the rule. ANY overlap obligates the car being passed to leave full racing room (1 full car width) for the car in front. Note that this is more restrictive than the NASA rulebook.
It leads to an interesting question (from a 944 cup) perspective as to who would be at fault here. In the current discussion, I agree that Mark is at fault as he tracked out directly into the other car. However in 944 cup terms, would the S2000 have been obligated to "yield" the corner and back out - as Mark had overlap? OR would have Mark been obligated to back off as he had not completed the pass and technically he S2000 had overlap...
Granted this is a digression on 944 Cup rules, but it would seem that 13/13 racing taken to the extreme could actually preclude (?) any actual side by side racing, especially through a set of esses as each car would have to yield to the other. Actually, it almost gives incentive for the car attempting the pass to INITIATE contact at the apex order to create a protestable incident should the pass not be successful - especially in a late race situation.
06-05-2007, 04:12 PM
#81
Three Wheelin'
Interesting thread. Seems to me there is always room for a lot of interpretation... My initial impression was that Mark's car was faster, and could have passed at a different time with less risk.
Of course that is based on a little snippet of video.
I am not sure how the accident would have been interpreted by our steward(s) in the PRC, but I am pretty sure that all/most of our drivers would not have gone for the inside move unless the could leave the outside room necessary for the other car. We don't race under 13/13, but we have managed to develop a climate with higher percentage moves.
I am not sure why Mark doesn't race with us since he is local, but my guess is that if he did, he would not have gone for such a move. Different driving climate in SCCA.
Of course that is based on a little snippet of video.
I am not sure how the accident would have been interpreted by our steward(s) in the PRC, but I am pretty sure that all/most of our drivers would not have gone for the inside move unless the could leave the outside room necessary for the other car. We don't race under 13/13, but we have managed to develop a climate with higher percentage moves.
I am not sure why Mark doesn't race with us since he is local, but my guess is that if he did, he would not have gone for such a move. Different driving climate in SCCA.
06-11-2007, 02:14 PM
#82
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Thread Starter
Great feed back. Im still a little torn about who is a fault here and was the original reason for my starting the discussion. Plus, it helps all of us to discuss these kind of incidents, especially in the 13/13 organizations. I actually still race with that mind set, however, in some of these races, i do understand that a slight bump in SCCA is not viewed as as harshly as it is in PRC, PCA, or POC.
I think the key point you make is, since i had a slightly faster car in some major areas of the track (actually, the S2000 had the fastest time of the day, but lap over lap, i was slightly faster. classic, light car vs heavy car battle), is that i could have made a safter move at some other area of the track, which is what i actually did, but both attempts were made due to me having a better run out of the previous set of turns. There was no gimmy here. i had to make a move when the opportunity presented itself.
after watching a weekend of Grand Am cup and Rolex, this same situation came up about 4 times . Most note worthy was henlzer and Colins ( porsche GT3 cup and pontiac GTOR/G8 respectively) at watkins Glen. Mid race, the GTO dove under the porsche going into a slow right. in fact, he did it at the last second, not even showing his nose like i did before braking. now side by side, he took the turn at max speed henzler didnt keep his foot in it, he backed out being on the outside and tucked in behind. The annoucers called it just as it happened. Dorsy Schraeder said " and here comes Collins on the inside, (just before the apex) "now henzler will have to back out , which he does and now and will tuck in behind the GTO" Right there you see that if Henzler would have kept his foot in it, and followed to the outside, which is his full right as this disussion as talked about, there is no way the GTO would have been able to tighen his path at the exit and there would have been some bumping. This was almost identical to my situation. I think its a risky manuever, but even riskier to try and regain position to the outside of this type of turn. I think it also goes back to the 13/13 type rules that suggest, both cars side by side need to give each other room in these type situations.
It all becomes judgement. He should have judged my speed and exit path based on the situation, i should have known his driving style and commitment to keep his lead. Since it was obvious that he didnt read my speed and exit path that was commited very early in the move, i should have backed out to avoid contact seeing that he was going to hold on at all cost to the outside.
Again, a bad situation that ended up in slight damage that nether one of us wanted to sustain.
BTW, i spent years running with the NASA Chariot races, which changed to porsche BMW Challenge and now called PRC. I stopped running as many races with them, to focus on SCCA club racing which races at LAGUNA and has loose noise restrictions. its some GREAT racing, and reminds me of the racing we used to have with bmw porsche challenge. PRC doesnt class the 928 very fairly, as a result of using the PCA rules, so the competition is not that good for my car. I like racing where the top 4 cars can change postion and hold the lead once in the race.
POC is even worse and only made small changed to the unfair classification to the 928 in their racing class structure based on my suggestions. Fair racing classing is done by looking at more than just hp to weight ratios. absolute weight dictates handling and braking, 2/3s of the gross racing equation, vs just HP to weight which is only the acceleration piece.
you may see me out there next season, as I miss the porsche events. the guys and the time to be had are good!!
Mark
I think the key point you make is, since i had a slightly faster car in some major areas of the track (actually, the S2000 had the fastest time of the day, but lap over lap, i was slightly faster. classic, light car vs heavy car battle), is that i could have made a safter move at some other area of the track, which is what i actually did, but both attempts were made due to me having a better run out of the previous set of turns. There was no gimmy here. i had to make a move when the opportunity presented itself.
after watching a weekend of Grand Am cup and Rolex, this same situation came up about 4 times . Most note worthy was henlzer and Colins ( porsche GT3 cup and pontiac GTOR/G8 respectively) at watkins Glen. Mid race, the GTO dove under the porsche going into a slow right. in fact, he did it at the last second, not even showing his nose like i did before braking. now side by side, he took the turn at max speed henzler didnt keep his foot in it, he backed out being on the outside and tucked in behind. The annoucers called it just as it happened. Dorsy Schraeder said " and here comes Collins on the inside, (just before the apex) "now henzler will have to back out , which he does and now and will tuck in behind the GTO" Right there you see that if Henzler would have kept his foot in it, and followed to the outside, which is his full right as this disussion as talked about, there is no way the GTO would have been able to tighen his path at the exit and there would have been some bumping. This was almost identical to my situation. I think its a risky manuever, but even riskier to try and regain position to the outside of this type of turn. I think it also goes back to the 13/13 type rules that suggest, both cars side by side need to give each other room in these type situations.
It all becomes judgement. He should have judged my speed and exit path based on the situation, i should have known his driving style and commitment to keep his lead. Since it was obvious that he didnt read my speed and exit path that was commited very early in the move, i should have backed out to avoid contact seeing that he was going to hold on at all cost to the outside.
Again, a bad situation that ended up in slight damage that nether one of us wanted to sustain.
BTW, i spent years running with the NASA Chariot races, which changed to porsche BMW Challenge and now called PRC. I stopped running as many races with them, to focus on SCCA club racing which races at LAGUNA and has loose noise restrictions. its some GREAT racing, and reminds me of the racing we used to have with bmw porsche challenge. PRC doesnt class the 928 very fairly, as a result of using the PCA rules, so the competition is not that good for my car. I like racing where the top 4 cars can change postion and hold the lead once in the race.
POC is even worse and only made small changed to the unfair classification to the 928 in their racing class structure based on my suggestions. Fair racing classing is done by looking at more than just hp to weight ratios. absolute weight dictates handling and braking, 2/3s of the gross racing equation, vs just HP to weight which is only the acceleration piece.you may see me out there next season, as I miss the porsche events. the guys and the time to be had are good!!
Mark
Originally Posted by Mahler9th
Interesting thread. Seems to me there is always room for a lot of interpretation... My initial impression was that Mark's car was faster, and could have passed at a different time with less risk.
Of course that is based on a little snippet of video.
I am not sure how the accident would have been interpreted by our steward(s) in the PRC, but I am pretty sure that all/most of our drivers would not have gone for the inside move unless the could leave the outside room necessary for the other car. We don't race under 13/13, but we have managed to develop a climate with higher percentage moves.
I am not sure why Mark doesn't race with us since he is local, but my guess is that if he did, he would not have gone for such a move. Different driving climate in SCCA.
Of course that is based on a little snippet of video.
I am not sure how the accident would have been interpreted by our steward(s) in the PRC, but I am pretty sure that all/most of our drivers would not have gone for the inside move unless the could leave the outside room necessary for the other car. We don't race under 13/13, but we have managed to develop a climate with higher percentage moves.
I am not sure why Mark doesn't race with us since he is local, but my guess is that if he did, he would not have gone for such a move. Different driving climate in SCCA.
06-11-2007, 02:36 PM
#83
Race Director
Sorry Mark, but I'm still going to disagree with your conclusion. You left the door open and he took it. You had lots of racing room, just not where you wanted it. Just because you wanted to be someplace he was does not justify contact.
Pro racing is a different animal altogether and it really scares me when people compare the two (and it irritates me that pro racing allows some of the stuff they do). Due to sponsorship money, TV money, ticket money, etc., pro racing organizations just don't like to punish on-track incidents, especially late in the race. Pro racing is much more win at all costs. I don't like that aspect because amateurs see it and think that it's quite acceptable in amateur racing.
Pro racing is a different animal altogether and it really scares me when people compare the two (and it irritates me that pro racing allows some of the stuff they do). Due to sponsorship money, TV money, ticket money, etc., pro racing organizations just don't like to punish on-track incidents, especially late in the race. Pro racing is much more win at all costs. I don't like that aspect because amateurs see it and think that it's quite acceptable in amateur racing.
06-11-2007, 02:49 PM
#84
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Originally Posted by mark kibort
I think it also goes back to the 13/13 type rules that suggest, both cars side by side need to give each other room in these type situations.
06-11-2007, 04:32 PM
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Yeah I agree too. You've apologized to me email, even (blew smoke up my ***?) calling me a very good driver. Am I to think that just because you had your nose in front of me at the start of the brake zone that I'm just to come to a stop and completely yeild the corner to you? 
. Thats some funny ****.
If thats the case I should quit racing, because every guy that has more horsepower is going to nose ahead of me at the start of the corner. I made every effort to give you more than ample racing room.
Just because you want my spot on the race track does not mean you have the right to it.
. Thats some funny ****.If thats the case I should quit racing, because every guy that has more horsepower is going to nose ahead of me at the start of the corner. I made every effort to give you more than ample racing room.
Just because you want my spot on the race track does not mean you have the right to it.
06-11-2007, 06:08 PM
#87
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I wasnt blowing any smoke. Im talking about this in public to get the different opinions. These are good perspectives.
I dont think you need to stop and yeild the corner, unless you think you can make it around the car on the inside based on speeds at the entrance. all i needed was another couple of inches We both have a right to be where we were at the start of the turn in. the debate is who has the right during the turn and at the exit. As Geo said, it is probably better to drive even deeper in the turn to keep the outside car from having the ability to take the outside line. Or, in club 13/13 environments, one of us has to back out of the turn. Based on the outcome, i would say next time i would back out. I dont know what you would do, and it shouldnt matter.
When i saw this weekend's races on TV, I was just tuned in to many of passes that looked like our situation where the outside car backed out when they were beat or equaled to the turn in point of the corner.
Mk
I dont think you need to stop and yeild the corner, unless you think you can make it around the car on the inside based on speeds at the entrance. all i needed was another couple of inches
We both have a right to be where we were at the start of the turn in. the debate is who has the right during the turn and at the exit. As Geo said, it is probably better to drive even deeper in the turn to keep the outside car from having the ability to take the outside line. Or, in club 13/13 environments, one of us has to back out of the turn. Based on the outcome, i would say next time i would back out. I dont know what you would do, and it shouldnt matter. When i saw this weekend's races on TV, I was just tuned in to many of passes that looked like our situation where the outside car backed out when they were beat or equaled to the turn in point of the corner.
Mk
Originally Posted by krazik
Yeah I agree too. You've apologized to me email, even (blew smoke up my ***?) calling me a very good driver. Am I to think that just because you had your nose in front of me at the start of the brake zone that I'm just to come to a stop and completely yeild the corner to you? . Thats some funny ****.
If thats the case I should quit racing, because every guy that has more horsepower is going to nose ahead of me at the start of the corner. I made every effort to give you more than ample racing room.
Just because you want my spot on the race track does not mean you have the right to it.
. Thats some funny ****.If thats the case I should quit racing, because every guy that has more horsepower is going to nose ahead of me at the start of the corner. I made every effort to give you more than ample racing room.
Just because you want my spot on the race track does not mean you have the right to it.
06-11-2007, 06:17 PM
#88
Race Director
Originally Posted by mark kibort
As Geo said, it is probably better to drive even deeper in the turn to keep the outside car from having the ability to take the outside line. Or, in club 13/13 environments, one of us has to back out of the turn.
06-11-2007, 06:25 PM
#89
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
i was comitted and my exit line was comitted as well. i by the time we made contact i was just starting to get on the gas. my video is a little more telling of my perspective. Keep in mind, i dont take the pro racing mentality out there in the club events. This is my first contact with another car in 10 years, and was not a punt or bump for position. In fact , the contact forced me to back out, where in a pro racing situation we would have been bumping all the way to the next turn (i did get accidentally punted on the first lap of a Speed GT race once, and the driver after the race actually paid for half of damages, if you can believe that) 
I dont think i left any doors open. the S2000 left the door open as he could have drove down to the inside before i commited that path, forcing me to be on the outside. then i would have been in his position wondering if the door is open or will stay open by the time we exit the turn. I disagree that there was lots of racing room. due to the centrifugal force, the inside track area is pretty meaningless at the speed we were entering the turn at. I tried to make an effort to go narrower as the door was closing, but it was beyond my grip levels. But yes, i could have use the brakes, backed out and could have avoided contact, and thats what i will probably do in a simular situation in the future. (in the spirit of good club racing!)
again, thanks for the comments.
Mark
I dont think i left any doors open. the S2000 left the door open as he could have drove down to the inside before i commited that path, forcing me to be on the outside. then i would have been in his position wondering if the door is open or will stay open by the time we exit the turn. I disagree that there was lots of racing room. due to the centrifugal force, the inside track area is pretty meaningless at the speed we were entering the turn at. I tried to make an effort to go narrower as the door was closing, but it was beyond my grip levels. But yes, i could have use the brakes, backed out and could have avoided contact, and thats what i will probably do in a simular situation in the future. (in the spirit of good club racing!)
again, thanks for the comments.
Mark
Originally Posted by Geo
Sorry Mark, but I'm still going to disagree with your conclusion. You left the door open and he took it. You had lots of racing room, just not where you wanted it. Just because you wanted to be someplace he was does not justify contact.
Pro racing is a different animal altogether and it really scares me when people compare the two (and it irritates me that pro racing allows some of the stuff they do). Due to sponsorship money, TV money, ticket money, etc., pro racing organizations just don't like to punish on-track incidents, especially late in the race. Pro racing is much more win at all costs. I don't like that aspect because amateurs see it and think that it's quite acceptable in amateur racing.
Pro racing is a different animal altogether and it really scares me when people compare the two (and it irritates me that pro racing allows some of the stuff they do). Due to sponsorship money, TV money, ticket money, etc., pro racing organizations just don't like to punish on-track incidents, especially late in the race. Pro racing is much more win at all costs. I don't like that aspect because amateurs see it and think that it's quite acceptable in amateur racing.
06-11-2007, 08:15 PM
#90
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Originally Posted by mark kibort
needed was another couple of inches
Originally Posted by mark kibort
We both have a right to be where we were at the start of the turn in. the debate is who has the right during the turn and at the exit. As Geo said, it is probably better to drive even deeper in the turn to keep the outside car from having the ability to take the outside line. Or, in club 13/13 environments, one of us has to back out of the turn.
-Ry