mitch236

What I don't understand about the MS bashers is that saying that MS had some "trick" things in his car doesn't diminish his value. As I've stated before, there is alot to being a great principle driver and testing/tuning is maybe more important that driving in the race. This is where you can see a guy like Alonso shine and Fisi fail. I have to believe that Renault did so well with Alonso because Alonso was able to get the car setup quickly and that is what is lacking at Renault now. MS did alot to get F where they are now and he should be given some credit for that. How do you know that some of those "tricks" in the car weren't concieved by MS?

multi21

Finn,
I A. Wayne was being sarcastic about the last three races of the season except for Brazil. Ferrari worked so hard all year to catch up to Fernando and pass him in the points and THEN allegedly switch cars, come on.

A.Wayne

Mitch, pete, I was being a bit sarcastic , Of course MS had worked with Ferrari i'm not trying to deminish MS input at Ferrari , but the real genius's at ferrar are still there , that why it's buss. as usual.

Now did MS get the better car - yes,
Did MS get the better strategy - YEs
My point is MS is not as good or as great as his numbers would lead you to believe .
Has he been the best driver in F1 - Yes ! since 1994 , yes the best driver in F1 ,
because of manipulation - Yes

Most recently 06, Massa was no where until Ferrari ask MS to leave at year's end , then Massa Came Alive and was totally dominant over MS , don't you find it strange that a good driver who is always fast , suddenly get's slow , then complains , then get fast , c'mon ....
MS teammates are there to make MS look good , Do you think it is by accident
with bascically 2 new drivers and Ferrrari is still the fastest car on the block ,
MS leaves ferrari still no1. Alonso leaves renault now no 10 .....
Big mac has commented on Alonso 's input and lewis has also benefitted from this , we know Kimi is **** for setup and Massa is new experience , so it shows the depth of J. Todt and the Ferrari team to still have this continuity ...

MS was so fantastic last year for Ferrari WHY WOULD THEY ASK HIM TO LEAVE ? Ms leaving had to have been discussed at all levels MS would not have left F1 without Bernies OK , So it must have been viewed that he was pass his sell by date and it was obvious that Massa had the pace to match him , unless artificially held back , so the decision was made late to make MS move on , now we have a new fresh sport with new fresh faces ..... follow the $$$$

The Barichello comment was that poor rubin was artificially held back so often against MS , most funny would be barrichello pit strategy , 4-5 pit stops to MS 's 2 . or what about the time he ran out of fuel in Brasil while leading scummie by 22 seconds , or Mika Salo jumping into Scummies car after almost a year layoff and putting it on pole in Germany , or eddie irvine on his way to winning an F1 championship and Ferrari could not find one of his tires for 45 seconds on a pit stop , costing him the race and championship,,, I guess the team got tired of Carring him , so now we have new faces......

NOw what if Massa wins 7 W/C , or we heard on the radio they ask Kimi to move over , or it became obvious that Kimi was being held back for Massa , how would you accept Massa... as favorable as MS... I would Also like to point out MS has been doing this all of his career , before Ferrari , this is why you will never see MS mentioned by the seasoned Pundits as being the greatest or compared to Senna , Gilles, fangio etc and as time passes he will be remembered less ..
Ohh by the way , his sudden visit to spain was pure PR. to make it look like he had input regarding their success ,( see the interview he gave ) totally to stave off those that would sday , HHmmm see Ferrari is fast without MS 's input ....pure PR as that man had nothing to do with thier performance last weekend ...PURE PR... I'm glad to see him go ...

Pole please take your medication before responding

Oh would also like to point out that schumacher lost championships to
D.Hill *
J. villenueve *
Mika Hakkinen
Fernanado alonso

He also raced closely and at times shown up by
J. Montoya
D. coulthard
R. Barrichelo
E. Irvine

All these drivers have been denounced as being utter rubbish by the Scummie supporters , for me it says just as much about the quality of the drivers you have been beaten by....

* Scummie robbed a championship from one and tried to kill the other for one ..
Also i would like to add to the record he is the only driverin F1 history to have all of his championship points taken away from him for foul driving and to deliberately block a race track preventing his fellow competitors from Q3...
What a WC

mitch236

So what will you say when Mac tells Hamilton to hold back (or keeps him back) to let Alonso win?

mamoroso

I do not think that is going to happen. Ron Dennis wouldn't do that after criticizing Ferrari for the #1-#2 driver policy.
Plus history tells us they have always let them race.... Lauda-Prost, Senna-Prost, Hakkinen-Coulthard, Raikkonen-Montoya....

Geo

I'd be shocked as hell if it happens before it's clear that Alonso has sole opportunity to win the WC. Ron Dennis has pretty much always let his drivers race each other until one is eliminated from the championship.

Don't believe me?

Look how close Prost and Lauda were when Lauda beat Prost by a half point.
The Prost/Senna battles were nothing short of epic. I seriously doubt we'll see the likes of that again.
DC was always free to race MH unless he was eliminated. DC was a decent guy who honored agreements between him and MH in certain races, but that is NOT team orders.
God knows he let KR and JPM race each other, even to the team's detriment.

OTOH, Scummie's lap dogs have always been told to move over, even with a huge lead and still in the fight for the championship.

No one, including me who is one of the biggest Scummie bashers, denies was tremendously gifted, that he could raise the level of a team to challenge for the WC, etc. But, what many of us will say is that he simply is not as good as his numbers suggest. If you want to measure greatness, look at a WC's teammates. THAT is one reason Scummie will never be considered the greatest by most pundits. With all that was arranged on a team simply for him to win the WC, he SHOULD have won that many. I've posted a list of most WCs in the last 20-25 years and their teammates they had to beat. Many had be beat multiple WCs to win theirs. Scummie had a bunch of castrated lap dogs.

Ray S

I would disagree with that. MS obviously got the prefered strategy but better car, come on. These teams has massive budgets and if they find something that works for one car they will apply that same learning to the other car.

He was the best driver since '94 period. He needed no manipulation to be best.

Your conclusions are interesting in one respect. If you believe in the better strategy/better car senario, your have to say Hamilton is schooling Alonso on the track (with Alonso obviously getting the better car/strategy). With that senario you'd also have to wonder if Masa was able to finish in Spain because Ferrari gave him the better car that did not fail....

Flying Finn

How would you then explain for example the extra button(s) on his steering wheel vs. what his team mates at Benetton had?

Ray S

I never saw the extra Benetton button. Perhaps he wanted to control an aspect of the cars performance that his team mates did not.

That or else it was hooked up to a 150 shot of NOS.......

Seriously, after all he did in his career, do you you really think he won because teams were giving him a better car than his team mates? There is no question that teams play out strategies for each of their drivers. However, if they have a piece of equipment or software that is making the car faster do you really think they reserve it for only one car?

mitch236

Maybe the extra buttons were for something he wanted that other drivers didn't. Have you noticed Massa now reaches down to the right to turn something during races? MS used to do that all the time. Maybe he taught Massa what it did and how to use it. Think about it, if you were #1 at your team and figured out an advantage over your teammate, would you give it away? I don't think so...

A.Wayne

as i said Massa has scummies car and Kimi has Barrichello's car , the results are predictable ...

A.Wayne

That's expected , this year .
My point i was trying to make, is would you feel the same way about Massa 10 yrs from now if he won 7 wc , using MS tactics of holding back your teammate.
would you rate Massa !

multi21

Mitch,

That is the brake bias he's reaching for and yes, you are right. I never saw Massa or Kimi for that matter mess around in the cockpit as much as they do now. Funny how that works doesn't it.

Honestly, all the Schumacher bashers are simply crazy. You talk out of both sides of your mouth. You admit that he's been the best driver of the past 13 years, but then say it's because he has crap teammates or the better car. Who developed that car? It wasn't Barricello. MS was the ring master that put everyone including Todt and Brawn in place. Can you name another driver that had such influence on the entire organization from top to bottom? The thing with MS is that he treated everyone from the CEO to the janitor at Ferrari the same, because he realized everyone was crucial to the success of the organization... and yes, the person who benefited was MS with his WC.

When you have someone like MS that puts all this together, did you expect that he would not get the optimal pit strategy? I will admit that he got the best pit strategy. I will admit that his #2 driver was there to help the #1, because the way the rules are written, it is not advantagous to have two #1 drivers. It still isn't, but until one of the current McLaren or Ferrari driver's falls off the pace in terms of points, they will be dropped as well from equal status.

A. Wayne, please, give me a break with your "Short List" of the people who gave battle with Schumacher. It's laughable. Montoya? Montoya? I can remember three corners where he and Schumacher battled. One, Veloce Raptor has a good picture of Schumacher squeezing Montoya outside, the other was at the bus stop at Spa when Montoya got the best of him and then at one of the Italian tracks (can't remember if it was Imola or Monza) where they went at it. Where is Montoya now? Oh yea, NECKCAR. Montoya had raw skills that never developed because he had and still has **** for brains. PERIOD. That guy is a mess.

I don't believe Hamilton will be compromised if it comes down to Alonso or Hamilton winning this year. An argument can be made that Ron Dennis has more invested and at stake with Hamilton than Alonso. What Dennis did with Hamilton is historical and revolutionary and will have other teams doing the same. Hamilton is a company man and is more valuable to McLaren that Alonso. Unless something crazy happens, Hamilton will drive for McLaren for the next 10+ years and win multiple championships. Alonso is a hired gun to pair a WC with a young driver. Hamilton has done better than expected and has no pressure on him this year because he wasn't expected to do this well.

A.Wayne

Yes to all .....

A.Wayne

Pete,
It is obvious MS people , well have MS.....

Montoya won how many F1 races petey , guess who he beat to win those races petey , he almost won the F1 championship petey , guess who he lost it to petey .
Please i know you love the sport , now try to follow along ....
Now said pro ms people claim his teammates where lapdogs not me ,
what i have said, was, you claim them to be lapdogs yet he needed help to beat them ..... your great wc was fired from Ferrari , after he made it clear he wanted to stay , everything on my list is factual please come back with some facts to dis-prove them PETE not rhetoric ..

MS is the biggest fraud every perpetrated on an F1 audience , massa'S domination will show you this , as the guy he is currently handing him his *** TO , HAS BEATEN scummie TWICE STRAIGHT , SO PLEASE !