George A

Rob, you are forgetting the 600~700lbs advantage you have. That's a huge factor that no multilink can make up for. Face it, you have a long way to go. You should be lapping David. You lack many of the basic skills but try to talk at an advanced level. Notice how David, Jay and Geoff are listening and not giving advice? You really need to ride with people that have some skill to realize how much you are lacking.

G.

jakermc

What advice did I give? I only said what worked for me, I did not recommend that they do anything. Nor did I think I was describing anything advanced. Was my description too complex for you to understand?

Try not to exaggerate so much until you are able to lap me yourself.

George A

Yes Jessica, you are very smart.

Veloce Raptor

Come on, guys. This is not the place....

geoffucla

Glen, the advanced instruction day sounds like exactly what I need. I am very interested, and I would also be happy to meet anyone at the track any time I'm free. George, maybe sometime I can catch a ride with you in your car so I can see first hand your technique.
Also, it hasn't been mentioned yet, but Richochet for me is probably worse than BB. I slow a lot. Actually, entering the braking zone for both BB and Richochet, I'm at the same speed ~ 8k rpm in 3rd, or somewhere around 110. With the data acquisition device, found out I'm slowing to high 70s before turn in to Richochet, which I know is horribly slow. But as I go through the turn, the rear of the car feels like it wants to come around. I progressively add more power to keep it in check, but at track out I'm using every inch of the right side of the track. Maybe I'm turning in too late and am off camber the whole time?? Thanks guys, this discussion has been great!

Geoff.

Veloce Raptor

Geoff, here is yoru problem: you are at 8,000 rpm in 3rd gear. You should be in 4th for Ricochet and BB, and you will solve your imminent oversteer problem.

geoffucla

Hmm, okay. That does make some sense. So you would suggest short shifting before braking for those corners? I can do that, because I normally shift in the 7k-7.5k range (redline is 8.2k) just to keep the time spent close to redline down (I don't want to rebuild in 2 years!!). So, into BB I can shift near the corner station, and into Richochet I can shift just before the transition to the old track. In fact, I used to do that because the lower RPMs going over the transition made the car more stable. But then in braking for Richochet, I'd downshift to 3rd (which seems like a mistake). As it is now, I lift to 50% throttle just before the transition because it scares the crap out of me that it's going to land me aiming straight for the corner station!! My car does not like that transition very much. But I make 100% sure the wheel is straight before going over it, and I haven't had any 'moments'--

Geoff.

George A

Geoff, Ricochet use to scare the crap out of me. I experienced the same as you, the back end would get light and the car felt like it was going to rotate around. Actually, it rotated around on several occasions for me. I think I've been off in that corner more than any other place on the track. I alway use to tip toe through there until someone (I don't remember who) showed me what to do. I basically turn in really early and try not to load the outside too much until I'm past the apex. You can make minor correction past the and before the apex, but not at the apex. If you ever walk the track, you will notice that the largest change to camber/elevation is right at the apex. I'll send you a link in a couple of minutes and you can see how I enter earlier than the cars around me.

You are more than welcome to ride with me any time. I hardly get to go out by myself any more at DE's.

G.

Veloce Raptor

Well......it's not my car, so I won't suppose to tell you how to rev it or make it last longer. I was not aware that GT3's really wore that much when shifted at 8K.

Anyway, I tend to think backwards about corner entry set-up. I think about how I want the car to be on exit. Do I want it really twitchy & running out of RPM's before track out? Or do I want it totally hooked up & rocketing down the ensuing straight faster? And then I think backwards to figure out how I need to enter it in order to get the exit I want.

For Ricochet, which is a diabolical, off-camber, sort of ungrippy, but very fast downhill sweeper, I want to get to power EARLY, both to squat the rear for stability & to get more velocity down that straight. So yes, in order to get what I want from the exit, I need a lot more stability on entry. Yes, if it were me, I'd short shift just after the bump from new to old sections, and use torque, not HP. And yes, as George says, you need to enter earlier than you think (and earlier than almost everyone else).

For BB, same thing. If you can work to brake less, then you are going to be more successful there in 4th gear. Working backwards, that means you have 2 choices: short shifting on the previous straight, OR upshifting just after you apex (the momentary lift to upshift can actually aid rotation). I have tried both when driving Myron's GT3, and I actually like the latter better.

geoffucla

You're right, it probably doesn't wear that much. But there's not a lot of difference between the Cup engine and the street engine, and the Cups need rebuilds every 60-100 hours (depending on your risk tolerance). Granted, with their gearing, they are spending much more time at high revs. But if you figure a DE weekend is ~ 4 hours, then even 100 / 4 = 25 DEs (gulp!). So, I just hope there are some factors that I'm not taking into account.
Anyway, I like your method of breaking down the corner, and it makes sense to me. Upshifting in BB post apex...wow. For some reason, the reason I over brake is not track out, it's entry. BB seems downhill in entry, and for some reason that gives me the heebee jeebies! It's all mental, I'm sure.
Thanks for the advice!

Geoff.

Veloce Raptor

Again, I am not gonna presume to tell you how to (ab)use your car!

In any event, there is so much HP available up near 8K, it is a shame not to use it on a track like that.

Seriously, though, you are almost there, I think. If you can break things down, and try things a little bit at a time, you can safely determine the limits (yours and your car's).

Since corner exit is, IMO, the most impoirtant part on most (not all) corners, that is why I think backwards.

As for shifting in the middle of BB, the 3-4 shift in a GT3 is so quick & smooth, and the gate so short, you hardly have to lift if done right. But it is just enough to SLIGHTLY (and I do mean SLIGHTLY) unweight the rears just enough to help rotate & allow you to unwind steering earlier (and thus use more power on exit w/o worrying about understeer or running out of real estate!).

But what the hell do I know?

-Dave

Olcha911

Geoff was drivingwith John Sandusky, who was encouraging him to go faster in those over-braking places that were mentioned. John said he had a stopwatch time of 2:26.8 on Goeff's fastest lap which is very good with a passenger and only sport cups. Chuck Machala and I were in my car chasing Jim Buckley and we were barely keeping pace watching Goeff hundreds of feet ahead.

I have run in the 2:25's with my car in race trim with timeslips as proof, so I know Goeff was hauling *** and giveing his margin of safety as well. I can only speak for 911s and Boxsters, but on those two turns- Big Bend and Riccochet, my humble opinion for fastest way( I think Glen will agree) is:

BB - Either carry a lot of speed literally into the corner and don't downshift to 3rd but gently trail-brake as you turn in and get on the gas to the floor right after trailbraking- OR alternatively, brake earlier (before the last couple of cones) and squeeze the throttle on and power through the turn. It is downhill on entry, and uphill on exit.

Ricc- Brake early, turn-in early, squeeze power to the floor before apex and then adjust the line/steering on the way to track out afterthe early apex.

-keith

George A

Keith, looks like you saved me sending an email. Sounds like you guys noticed Geoff like Dave and I did. You should really add him the list of invitees to the instructor clinic.

G.

Veloce Raptor

Werd ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

geoffucla

Haha! Thanks guys. I swear, this stuff is so much fun, that it's hard not to think about it sometimes! I love it! Keith, can you believe I did that with John and with one rear wheel with toe out?? Some of those corners, John was just saying, "throttle, throttle!" and I was like, 'okay', and off we went. It's amazing that even when you think the car is at the limit of traction, it can still take some more throttle (case in point for me would be the turn right before BB).
Last DE was my first time driving with the Red group, because it was a red/white combo. It was really nice to drive with other cars that were about the same speed as me--makes it much more fun. In white, Doug with his old turbo and new GT2 is really fun to play with, and we have a great time doing it. It's really amazing seeing how the two different cars work better in some parts and worse in others. Now Doug is getting Motons, so I'm really going to have to pick up the pace to hang with him!
Anyway, I'm glad we found a corner of Rennlist to find each other. I look forward to continuing to learn from you all!

Geoff.