Instructor looses temper oh and an EVO takes out a NSX and a G35
05-12-2006, 07:15 PM
#91
Originally Posted by Bull
Hey, us German/Irish fellows are quite pleasant and reasonable! Understand? Got IT? DON'T MAKE ME HAVE TO TELL YOU AGAIN!
Amazing how Slapping a dashboard repeatedly while yelling "Go, Go Go!" will teach you to merge properly into traffic at 16. (now 29)
05-12-2006, 07:45 PM
#92
Originally Posted by TD in DC
I think this discussion brings up a good point. I have never once heard during a driver's meeting any discussion about the proper relationship between instructor and student. Everyone assumes that all the students know that the instructor is in charge, but maybe that is a false assumption. :
First
"You might be the pilot but the Instructor is the Captain and what he or she says goes."
Two (and this is my favorite)
"If you aren't listening and your Instructor is unhappy he will come to me and say (hopefully in front of everyone at a meeting) that he is afraid he is going to die and will not get back in the car with you.
"Now all I have to do is find someone who is willing to go with you and we will get you right back on the track."
Our Instructors thank me for this
05-12-2006, 07:50 PM
#93
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Early in the thread, someone metioned the subject was discussed on the NNJR website. If you really want to make sense of this you need to read in the forum area about the lap time comparisons that were going on for king of the hill that day. This is not a timed event and certainly not a qualified PCA club race. I think it can only get ugly from here on out........ Time to sit on the sideline on this thread.
05-12-2006, 08:04 PM
#94
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Another beginning student's perspective here, 2 PCA DEs: Never underestimate a newbie's ability to do stupid stuff! During my second DE (Putnam) it had been raining hard in the morning and the track was real wet. Exiting turn 1 a 944 began spinning doing 360s in front of us, I was able to slow and dive outside him staying on the track. I was so shocked seeing him whipping around inches from my brand new 911 that I began to slow more as if I was going to stop and see if I could give him a hand, maybe make a call for him or something 
Very quickly and pleasantly, but forcefully my instructor said GO! GO! It took me about a nanosecond to realize I was on a wet race track with lots of fast-moving cars approaching me from the rear and that I should probably keep forward momentum.
Whether the guy in the video was a rookie or not he obviously was a bonehead, arrogant or both. It seems to me the instructor didn't jeopardize anyone's safety by touching the wheel at their slow speed, and was only trying to physically communicate what she was probably yelling in the headset, which may or may not have been working well from my experiences.
I have to think that more than just a few beginning DE'ers are unprepared for what they've gotten themselves, others, and their vehicles into. I learned about DE from a Porsche owner friend that when he discovered I had gotten a car insisted I give it a try. I had absolutely no idea what to expect. I rarely watched racing on TV, never had owned a real performance car, was clueless. I had to borrow a helmet from a nice local Rennlister, Alan C. Fortunately, I had a car that could practically drive itself, great instructors and instruction, and perhaps a little natural ability. I admire you guys and gals that instruct, and the organizers and corner workers too. You folks volunteer for an important and dangerous job so the rest of us can have a little fun. Hats off.
Very quickly and pleasantly, but forcefully my instructor said GO! GO! It took me about a nanosecond to realize I was on a wet race track with lots of fast-moving cars approaching me from the rear and that I should probably keep forward momentum. Whether the guy in the video was a rookie or not he obviously was a bonehead, arrogant or both. It seems to me the instructor didn't jeopardize anyone's safety by touching the wheel at their slow speed, and was only trying to physically communicate what she was probably yelling in the headset, which may or may not have been working well from my experiences.
I have to think that more than just a few beginning DE'ers are unprepared for what they've gotten themselves, others, and their vehicles into. I learned about DE from a Porsche owner friend that when he discovered I had gotten a car insisted I give it a try. I had absolutely no idea what to expect. I rarely watched racing on TV, never had owned a real performance car, was clueless. I had to borrow a helmet from a nice local Rennlister, Alan C. Fortunately, I had a car that could practically drive itself, great instructors and instruction, and perhaps a little natural ability. I admire you guys and gals that instruct, and the organizers and corner workers too. You folks volunteer for an important and dangerous job so the rest of us can have a little fun. Hats off.
Last edited by InThePocket; 05-13-2006 at 09:17 AM.
05-12-2006, 08:05 PM
#95
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Originally Posted by bobt993
Early in the thread, someone metioned the subject was discussed on the NNJR website. If you really want to make sense of this you need to read in the forum area about the lap time comparisons that were going on for king of the hill that day. This is not a timed event and certainly not a qualified PCA club race. I think it can only get ugly from here on out........ Time to sit on the sideline on this thread.
05-12-2006, 08:10 PM
#96
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Originally Posted by Bull
Where are the "lap time comparisons" from this PDA event on the Pocono East Course, where this accident happened. Certainly not on the NNJR website.
I just glanced over it and noticed some times, but like I said I didn't actually read it.
05-12-2006, 08:25 PM
#97
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Ah, I see the problem. Some IDIOT jumped into an autocross thread about a recent BMW autocross that a number of NNJR autocrossers attended (NOT at Pocono), and posted this Pocono East Course fiasco with the link to the video. As this disaster was being discussed, others continued along the subject of the original autocross thread. To make it worse, the CLOWN who interjected this PDA event fiasco into the autocross thread changed the title of the thread to read something like "East Course accident...." (he was able to do that because he is the guy who began the original autocross thread. We a glad that he hardly ever gets out of the parking lots! BTW, the thread on NNJR is under "Drivers Education" because another autocrosser didn't like the discussion being in the AutoX section, so it was moved. What a Zoo!
NNJR had nothing to do with this PDA event, and there was no discussion of timing at the PDA event on the NNJR site.
NNJR had nothing to do with this PDA event, and there was no discussion of timing at the PDA event on the NNJR site.
05-12-2006, 09:30 PM
#98
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Originally Posted by Bull
Ah, I see the problem. Some IDIOT jumped into an autocross thread about a recent BMW autocross that a number of NNJR autocrossers attended (NOT at Pocono), and posted this Pocono East Course fiasco with the link to the video. As this disaster was being discussed, others continued along the subject of the original autocross thread. To make it worse, the CLOWN who interjected this PDA event fiasco into the autocross thread changed the title of the thread to read something like "East Course accident...." (he was able to do that because he is the guy who began the original autocross thread. We a glad that he hardly ever gets out of the parking lots! BTW, the thread on NNJR is under "Drivers Education" because another autocrosser didn't like the discussion being in the AutoX section, so it was moved. What a Zoo!
NNJR had nothing to do with this PDA event, and there was no discussion of timing at the PDA event on the NNJR site.
NNJR had nothing to do with this PDA event, and there was no discussion of timing at the PDA event on the NNJR site.
The timing discussion is about the AX event, NOT the PDA DE event.
-Z.
05-12-2006, 10:29 PM
#99
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Originally Posted by Z-man
What Bull said. That thread started as an AX thread and evolved into a discussion of the EVO accident.
The timing discussion is about the AX event, NOT the PDA DE event.
-Z.
The timing discussion is about the AX event, NOT the PDA DE event.
-Z.
05-12-2006, 10:51 PM
#100
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Originally Posted by BrianKeithSmith
OK, generally at DE's you have people that have been through 12 years of schooling (I didn't say it was worth a crap, I just said they had been through it), plus generally 4 years of college before they've found themselves in a position to be at the track.
If they haven't grasped the concept of who is in control, and has the "authority" in a particular situation by this time, there's not much you can put in a module that's gonna help them understand it.
Just my opinion. I respect Larry, and the idea. But these people are adults. Plain and simple. If they can't act like adults, send them packing. Once again, plain and simple. Accomodating them by creating a new instructor module isn't the answer. Making their wallet feel the pain when they don't get their way, might... The module could include the protocol for how you approach the chief instructor, but it shouldn't necessarily include "how to get a belligerent (sp?) student to listen". I as an instructor should assume that they know how to listen and follow simple commands and instruction before I get in the car with them.
Just my .02.
If they haven't grasped the concept of who is in control, and has the "authority" in a particular situation by this time, there's not much you can put in a module that's gonna help them understand it.
Just my opinion. I respect Larry, and the idea. But these people are adults. Plain and simple. If they can't act like adults, send them packing. Once again, plain and simple. Accomodating them by creating a new instructor module isn't the answer. Making their wallet feel the pain when they don't get their way, might... The module could include the protocol for how you approach the chief instructor, but it shouldn't necessarily include "how to get a belligerent (sp?) student to listen". I as an instructor should assume that they know how to listen and follow simple commands and instruction before I get in the car with them.
Just my .02.
Mike
05-12-2006, 11:06 PM
#101
Race Car
yeah,
Yelling at the student, is a last resort.... and no doubt a communication problem... But it was day 2, 2nd session, a modded 996T, and I thought I was clear on this turn... and really, I'm thinking of when I'm not there and he's on the boost..... those late spins always catch you off guard... and that track has walls... regardless, this guys clear on that turn now, and hopefully the other crashout points...
so..... I was thinking , maybe Tasers should be in the race bag... the Flaggers have bricks.... naaaaaaaah....
Yelling at the student, is a last resort.... and no doubt a communication problem... But it was day 2, 2nd session, a modded 996T, and I thought I was clear on this turn... and really, I'm thinking of when I'm not there and he's on the boost..... those late spins always catch you off guard... and that track has walls... regardless, this guys clear on that turn now, and hopefully the other crashout points...
so..... I was thinking , maybe Tasers should be in the race bag... the Flaggers have bricks.... naaaaaaaah....
05-12-2006, 11:13 PM
#102
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I've the easy solution for this.
When students sign the waiver for the track event, they agree to get kicked and hit by the instructor if the student behaves as an idiot and doesn't listen. Instructor will be allowed to hit the student with any kind of heavy metal including: harness bar, fire extinguisher, smashing head between door and quarter panel. Student will allow the instructor to kick his dumb butt during and after the stupid incident. The dumb student will approve a collective kick butt punishment by all the instructors.
By the way, is there a picture of these two morons? Isn't this the time to start the "Not welcomed to the track" list with pictures? Personally, I don't want to be at risk on a track session by unknowngly driving among that kind of potential killers.
When students sign the waiver for the track event, they agree to get kicked and hit by the instructor if the student behaves as an idiot and doesn't listen. Instructor will be allowed to hit the student with any kind of heavy metal including: harness bar, fire extinguisher, smashing head between door and quarter panel. Student will allow the instructor to kick his dumb butt during and after the stupid incident. The dumb student will approve a collective kick butt punishment by all the instructors.
By the way, is there a picture of these two morons? Isn't this the time to start the "Not welcomed to the track" list with pictures? Personally, I don't want to be at risk on a track session by unknowngly driving among that kind of potential killers.
05-13-2006, 01:41 AM
#103
Burning Brakes
I see "IFLYSOLO" shot the video? I know I've seen that license plate at the local events.
This guy is a "friend" of the Evo driver, and posted a vid...with club music to help set the mood...all over the web? It looks and sounds like the end of a video game after you wreck...all it needs is "game over!"
This guy is a "friend" of the Evo driver, and posted a vid...with club music to help set the mood...all over the web? It looks and sounds like the end of a video game after you wreck...all it needs is "game over!"
05-13-2006, 11:39 AM
#104
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1. IFLYSOLO is a morbid idiot. He should be booted from all future events.
2. IMO the Instructor's actions with the wheel were justified but futile. At that point, I probably would have stayed put off to the right out of the way of the hot action on the track.
3. I don't know this track, but where are the flag stations in the video clip? Are they just out of view on the vid? How will oncoming cars be forewarned of this carnage?
4. Staging 50 yards away from track out of a fast left hand sweeper is crazy. The event organizers should rethink this one.
5. To the EVO driver: Be THE MAN and just drive straight ahead with 2 wheels off...
2. IMO the Instructor's actions with the wheel were justified but futile. At that point, I probably would have stayed put off to the right out of the way of the hot action on the track.
3. I don't know this track, but where are the flag stations in the video clip? Are they just out of view on the vid? How will oncoming cars be forewarned of this carnage?
4. Staging 50 yards away from track out of a fast left hand sweeper is crazy. The event organizers should rethink this one.
5. To the EVO driver: Be THE MAN and just drive straight ahead with 2 wheels off...
05-13-2006, 08:15 PM
#105
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I was there in the green group with PDA the day before this happened. There is no reason to stage where they were staging the run groups. In fact, for the green group in the first session we staged behind the building well back from the track waiting for instructors to pick cars to ride in. It was only in the later runs that we were staged where this accident happened. I think one reason why they staged where they did when the accident happened is that the group that is on the track can go back to the paddock on the road behind the stagging area while the next group gets on the track. If they stage behind the building, they have to wait for all the cars coming off the track to pass before letting the next run group on the track. Saving a couple of minutes doesn't seem worth it. One additional point and I may get flammed for this, but in my exerience this year at DE's (my first year) outside of PCA I have seen a very aggressive and dangerous attitude among evo and sti drivers. Talking to people in the paddock running in the green run group, it's clear that some of these guys (tend to be young) feel invincible because they believe that they can run tracks like Lime Rock flat out the entire lap and the car's abilities will get them out of any trouble they might get themselves into. Some of the attitudes I've come across have been very scary. So much so that on a couple of occasions, I've made sure to keep track of my mirrors for these jokers and have given them a wide berth if they come into view.
