TheOtherEric

I think if it were me, I probably would have done about the same thing as her. Calm at first, but start reaming him if he remained obstinate. Really- what else can you do?

However, if I had known that he was doing all this just to get video footage, I would have ripped the f**king camera off its mount, smashed it against the dashboard, and hurled it out the window. Seriously.

Or point a pistol finger at his head and pull a Jack Bauer: "Sir, you need to move your car... NOW!"

Larry Herman

Those of us who can have an intimidating presence usually do not have any real problem with students who need to have their wings clipped a little. That being said, in over 20 years I have never had a student outright refuse to do what I requested them to do. I am not quite sure how I would handle it under the heat of the moment. I can assure you that they would never return to a Riesentoter event.

I think that this would be an excellent module for the National Instructor program; dealing with students who refuse to listen. It would be nice to have an agreed upon and well thought out process to be able to draw upon if needed. I think that it is important enough that I will send an IM to Pete Tremper about it.

mrbill_fl

LH: " intimidating presence "

thats kinda what I was thinking too... I've not had this issue either, but for a woman I can see it happening.

fwiw, I had a student do something I told him to stop doing (shifting before the car was straight)...

-he stopped it when we were slower, but when the speeds increased it happend again.

I yelled at him: 'if you do that again, I'm getting out of the car, you're going to hurt us! '.

but then for the next 2 laps I had to get him to refocus on driving/line, as he was still recovering from my threat...

but he got the message, I was in control, he was driving...

hacker-pschorr

Time to put my ******* hat on.

I’m sorry, one strike you are done – period – no questions asked. This is not drivers school for a standard drivers license. These are high speed events! If a student does not listen, get them off the track. I am NOT going to put my life and my car in danger so some hot-shot can screw around as the instructor tries to reel him / her in. Last time I checked there was not a shortage of participants at any DE event I’ve been to. It’s not like clubs are loosing their shirts since nobody is showing up. If you cannot hack it, you do NOT deserve to be there.

Some tracks like the one in the video where speeds are relatively low is bad enough. Try coming out of the kink at Road America full speed only to find a “newbie” on his 4th instructor blocking the track – and I mean blocking. The poor kid in the Mustang behind me had to clean his shorts after doing a 360 brake lock up coming out of the kink when he saw me stand on the brakes. I was the 4th car in line behind him!! Why was this guy not pulled form the even the first two times he pulled this sh*t? His dad was “buddies” with one of the officials.

This is not a 5hp go-cart event. If you do not listen, you have no business on a race track.

bobt993

I think that this would be an excellent module for the National Instructor program; dealing with students who refuse to listen. It would be nice to have an agreed upon and well thought out process to be able to draw upon if needed. I think that it is important enough that I will send an IM to Pete Tremper about it.[/QUOTE]

Larry, I totally agree with you and expect this to be subject matter at the National program next Friday. I am going to download the clip and bring it to the meeting for comments. BTW, I cannot imagine this guy and his buddy getting this far out of hand with: Mike A, Brian S., You (let alone Steve) having a short conversation with them. We had this happen last year with a driver or two who were just "lacking talent"(good attitudes though) and were demoted in run groups when running with RTR or not asked back. Driving on the road is a privilege not a given rite. Driving on the track is a gift from the clubs and should be appreciated.

One last visual image would be Steve awarding the meatball flag to driver X by placing it up his backside or at least racer taping it to his body.

BrianKeithSmith

OK, generally at DE's you have people that have been through 12 years of schooling (I didn't say it was worth a crap, I just said they had been through it), plus generally 4 years of college before they've found themselves in a position to be at the track.

If they haven't grasped the concept of who is in control, and has the "authority" in a particular situation by this time, there's not much you can put in a module that's gonna help them understand it.

Just my opinion. I respect Larry, and the idea. But these people are adults. Plain and simple. If they can't act like adults, send them packing. Once again, plain and simple. Accomodating them by creating a new instructor module isn't the answer. Making their wallet feel the pain when they don't get their way, might... The module could include the protocol for how you approach the chief instructor, but it shouldn't necessarily include "how to get a belligerent (sp?) student to listen". I as an instructor should assume that they know how to listen and follow simple commands and instruction before I get in the car with them.

Just my .02.

If its kinda strong, sorry, but we need to stop pandering everything in life to the lowest common denominator.

(and YES, I'm in a bad mood, somebody broke into my trailer on Sunday night and I've been in a bad mood ever since. May God's mercy be with this person if I ever find out who it was)

Brian

Larry Herman

Erik, I think that you interpreted some leniency in my comment. I can assure you that there is none. Mutiny in the car is punishable by death! ONE AND DONE! I am referring as to what to do in the heat of the moment; how to demand and get control back at that moment in time. Maybe it is accomplished in advance by noticing a students demeanor and dealing with it right upfront. Then as a situation happens, the student will be less head-strong; perhaps.

And Brian is correct. There are plenty of willing and wonderful people who want to to DEs. We don't need the ********.

Gator_86_951

That should go on your regions instructor shirts for this season!

VaSteve

As a student, I have a hard time with this. Maybe your frame of reference is different (you know this event, I wasn't there) but it sounds as if you're describing something that any new student would do. To be yelled at for that is improper as you can see it rattled his concentration for the next two laps. If you were in a dangerous situation, I think you should have immediately pitted and discussed it. If he was an *** or a know it all, then yelling is appropriate. Again, I don't know the nature of what you told him previously.

Now, I was yelled once not to lift in the Chute at Summit Point. But, given the context and my own understanding of the Chute's dangers, I was OK with that. Plus, I think much of it was my instructor's persona when something surprising/threatening came up.

Greg Smith

+1

TD in DC

I think this discussion brings up a good point. I have never once heard during a driver's meeting any discussion about the proper relationship between instructor and student. Everyone assumes that all the students know that the instructor is in charge, but maybe that is a false assumption.

The truth is that you do not want students blindly to follow commands of instructors. Why? Because students frequently do not understand commands that instructors are giving, or the student may be perceiving something that the instructor has not (e.g., experiencing a mechanical problem or seeing a car passing without a signal, etc . . ). As such, you want someone to drive with safety as the top priority, and with the understanding that the instructor has absolute control and commands should be followed without question UNLESS the student believes the command would pose an imminent threat to the safety of the student and instructor.

I will give you an example of what I mean. Those of you who know me or have instructed me know that I cede all control to the instructor, and that I put my ego aside when in the car. Nonetheless, I ignored an instructor's commands during my first ever DE, and both the instructor and I were happy about that after the incident was over. This was at VIR, and I had passed a car on the back straight. We were approaching the climbing esses, and my instructor kept telling me to gas, gas, gas, and then he told me to get back over. to the right for entry to the esses. I could see that the other car had not lifted, and that I would clip the other car if I tried to do what the instructor said. For my novice brain, this was overload. I wanted to obey the instructor, but his commands were inconsistent with my safety. I decided that I needed to put safety first. I was too stressed to respond verbally to the instructor: I was concentrating on ensuring that I was driving safely. As a consequnce, we entered the climbing esses offline and fairly fast . . . nothing bad happened at all. No sliding, no spinning, no drama. The instructor was still screaming at me: WHY AREN'T YOU LISTENING TO ME? As soon as we got through the esses, I had enough mental processing capacity to speak. I calmly explained that I would have clipped the other car, so I didn't cut back in. He asked why I wasn't slowing down, and I explained because he kept telling me to stay on the gas and I was trying to do what he had asked. He said "oh." Then, after a few seconds, he began to apologize for having yelled at me so much. It didn't bother me because I "understood" why he was yelling.

In any event, the point behind this example is that you do NOT want students blindly to follow instructor comments. You DO want students to drive with safety in mind first and foremost, and with the willingness to cede all control to the instructor after that.

Perhaps a few sentences about the instructor/student relationship during the driver's meeting would be helpful. Although it may not prevent a$$hats like the one in the video from acting up, it might actually help. Even more importantly, however, it would lay the foundation for an instructor claiming control, or the ejection of any student who unreasonable failed to follow an instructor's command. Now, if you do not talk about it at all, you might have some confusion, even though reasonable minds should figure it out soon enough on their own.

EDIT: BTW, this little story is evidence of exactly why I received the Potomac PCA Drivers Education "Most Improved Student" award for 2005, which we all know should be called "the student who was the worst driver when he or she started but now doesn't stink quite so much" award.

bobt993

[QUOTE=VaSteve]As a student, I have a hard time with this. Maybe your frame of reference is different (you know this event, I wasn't there) but it sounds as if you're describing something that any new student would do. To be yelled at for that is improper as you can see it rattled his concentration for the next two laps.

Have you ever been a front seat passenger to an accident and watch it painfully/hopelessly happen in slow motion? I have twice and the other two times managed to get the attention of the driver to avoid it. I think you need to realize as a student that instructing can feel very similar when you feel the car going all wrong way before the driver senses it (now I am jumping both feet in for the PCNA program next week). I am sure sometimes the instructor yelling seems dramatic, but since the instructor is not on your payroll realize he/she is there for your well-being and their own and is right say 98% of the time. Then, just have fun.

Geo

I couldn't agree more Larry. I don't think touching the controls gets you what you need and can even cause further danger. What's needed is a plan to deal with a student who just refuses to listen. The ultimate response is to say "Thank you for coming, but your event is over." However, that does not deal with the immediate problem of a bonehead in the left seat.

As for what I would do? My answer is probably not a good one as I have never really considered it before seeing this video, but I'm sure my response would be to be in this idiots face, even if I had to grab his helmet (once stopped) and yell at him/her like a drill instructor (probably using all the words DI's used to be able to us. In any event I'm sure I would be yelling insessantly until he/she complied or I passed out from lack of oxygen.

BC

This thread is great. I will be getting into tracking soon, either PCA or SCCA or whatever, and will be immediatly dealing with the teacher/student(me) scenario. I will need to say "If you want to grab the wheel - just tell me first", and "Yell at me if you are not getting your point across - I had an irish/german father - it will not affect me"

Bull

Hey, us German/Irish fellows are quite pleasant and reasonable! Understand? Got IT? DON'T MAKE ME HAVE TO TELL YOU AGAIN!