Instructor looses temper oh and an EVO takes out a NSX and a G35
05-11-2006, 12:24 PM
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Instructor looses temper oh and an EVO takes out a NSX and a G35
So I was watching this video and couldn't help but think that the instructor was out of line in grabbing the wheel trying to get the student to get back on the track after he stopped off the side of the track.
I am not disputing that the student was in the wrong. My question is more for the instructor. Is it approriate for an instructor to reach over at any time and try to steer the car? I know that rolling along in the grass doing that isn't going to hurt anything but I still would like to hear what you guys think.
I am not disputing that the student was in the wrong. My question is more for the instructor. Is it approriate for an instructor to reach over at any time and try to steer the car? I know that rolling along in the grass doing that isn't going to hurt anything but I still would like to hear what you guys think.
05-11-2006, 12:34 PM
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I never touch the wheel when instructing and I think barring some extreme circumstance (driver has passed out), it is probably not a good idea.
When two folks are fighting at the controls, rarely anything good comes out of it. Even if the student was about to do something stupid, it is at least a human in control of something. If two humans are trying to control the same vehicle, no one is in control.
I've watched this video a bunch (hot topic these days on other boards) and I'm not sure I know what Michelle (the instructor) is trying to do. Was she keeping the driver from going back on to the track? Suggesting he go back on track? It isn't clear to me.
In pilot training there is specific protocol for transferring who is control of the airplane at any given time. This prevents "dual inputs" to the controls that could cause problems (cross controlling, right aileron and left rudder in an airplane, for example, is generally "bad"...).
When two folks are fighting at the controls, rarely anything good comes out of it. Even if the student was about to do something stupid, it is at least a human in control of something. If two humans are trying to control the same vehicle, no one is in control.
I've watched this video a bunch (hot topic these days on other boards) and I'm not sure I know what Michelle (the instructor) is trying to do. Was she keeping the driver from going back on to the track? Suggesting he go back on track? It isn't clear to me.
In pilot training there is specific protocol for transferring who is control of the airplane at any given time. This prevents "dual inputs" to the controls that could cause problems (cross controlling, right aileron and left rudder in an airplane, for example, is generally "bad"...).
05-11-2006, 12:35 PM
#3
Race Director
This vid has been circling the car forums on the interwebnet. Spreading like wildfire.
Agreed.
BTW, here is her response to the whole "why did you grab the steering wheel" question:
I stated elsewhere on the WWW - there are many methods of communication - I think she should have tried other communication techniques before resorting to tugging on the steering wheel...
-Z-man.
PS: I know the instructor, Michelle. Very level headed person - but I still think it was wrong for her to grab the wheel.
Originally Posted by Kool
So I was watching this video and couldn't help but think that the instructor was out of line in grabbing the wheel trying to get the student to get back on the track after he stopped off the side of the track. I am not disputing that the student was in the wrong. My question is more for the instructor. Is it approriate for an instructor to reach over at any time and try to steer the car? I know that rolling along in the grass doing that isn't going to hurt anything but I still would like to hear what you guys think.
BTW, here is her response to the whole "why did you grab the steering wheel" question:
Originally Posted by From audiworld post
First of all let me introduce myself since I've never been on this forum before...I'm Michelle and I was the instructor in the Audi who was videotaping the Evo. I got in the Audi at the end of the day and had no idea that these two jokers were friends. I also didn't realize that this guy was videotaping...my mistake. But as for grabbing the wheel, I was trying to get the guy to stay on track and go to the left since the accident was on the right. Obviously he did not listen to me. Once he pulled off the track into the grass, I was instructing him to go to the right, back down pit row and get out of the way. I was not encouraging him to vidoe tape this...if you only had sound, you would know better.
As for staging the cars in this area...I have been going to Pocono for years with cars and with bikes and all the clubs stage in that area at the end of the session to prepare for the next session. I have never seen or heard an incident like this happening there or even a forecasting of a possible problem...obviously this will all be changing now. But PDA is a great organization and run good safe events. It's unfortunately but you can't predict what stupid things people are do next.
As for staging the cars in this area...I have been going to Pocono for years with cars and with bikes and all the clubs stage in that area at the end of the session to prepare for the next session. I have never seen or heard an incident like this happening there or even a forecasting of a possible problem...obviously this will all be changing now. But PDA is a great organization and run good safe events. It's unfortunately but you can't predict what stupid things people are do next.
-Z-man.
PS: I know the instructor, Michelle. Very level headed person - but I still think it was wrong for her to grab the wheel.
05-11-2006, 12:42 PM
#4
Burning Brakes
The student was/is an idiot.
The instructor was fully justified in trying to get the student to get his car out of an impact zone (as it had recently become...) and move away from the incident. As the story has evolved, we all now know that the silver Evo that lost it and crashed was a buddy of this student, and he was 'filming' the incident...and wanted to get the aftermath on tape. If I was the instructor, he would have gotten a fist in the face.
And...two days later, this student was asked to leave an event at the Glen after behaving like an asshat on track for several sessions.
What kind of idiot drives right at an accident scene ?
The instructor was fully justified in trying to get the student to get his car out of an impact zone (as it had recently become...) and move away from the incident. As the story has evolved, we all now know that the silver Evo that lost it and crashed was a buddy of this student, and he was 'filming' the incident...and wanted to get the aftermath on tape. If I was the instructor, he would have gotten a fist in the face.
And...two days later, this student was asked to leave an event at the Glen after behaving like an asshat on track for several sessions.
What kind of idiot drives right at an accident scene ?
05-11-2006, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Z-man
there are many methods of communication - I think she should have tried other communication techniques before resorting to tugging on the steering wheel...
I'm with the Prof on this one
05-11-2006, 01:10 PM
#6
Race Director
Originally Posted by Mike Buck
Like what Zoltan? Please tell
I'm with the Prof on this one
I'm with the Prof on this one
Some things that could have been said/done:
"We cannot stay here. GET BACK ON THE TRACK." <-- Strong verbal communication.
"Go THERE now. " (Pointing to track) <-- for the visual communicator
"I feel this is an unsafe spot. We need to move quickly out of here." <-- for the kinestetic learner.
"Go NOW, or both of us will get killed sitting here." <-- for the over-dramatic.
"Listen to me. You cannot stay here. You will be thrown out of the event if you don't MOVE NOW." <-- for those who have problems with authority.
"Another car can loose it and turn into you. We MUST GO NOW." <-- for the sheet metal conscious...
"You are scaring me. I don't like to be scared. When I get scared, I lose control of my bowel movements. You'll have a big mess to clean up..." <-- sometimes humor can get the point across effectively.
Basically, the instructor should do whatever it takes to get the student and his car out of harm's way. I would say the final effort can be to turn the wheel, but only after all other approaches have been exhausted.
-Z.
05-11-2006, 01:13 PM
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The instructor was ABSOLUTELY in the right to grab the steering wheel, first to try to keep him on the track then later to try to make him move out of the danger zone. Her story is completely credible and the video supports it. His driving off the track accomplished nothing but put them in danger and she was trying to prevent that. Instructors shouldn't grab the wheel unless they're trying to prevent a dangerous situation, thus she was wise to grab the wheel. Problem was he drove off before she could stop it.
Notice how the driver snipped out a piece of the video? Notice how he dubs pointless music over top of her commands? It's because it would prove he's a complete a$$hat and that she was trying her best (including dropping multiple f-bombs) to keep them safe. Good for her. If anything, she wasn't forceful ENOUGH; should have cut the wheel, held it, and said "NOW PUSH THE GAS PEDAL YOU F**KING MORON".
If this were my student, I would have gone postal on the dumb SOB for parking it here.
Notice how the driver snipped out a piece of the video? Notice how he dubs pointless music over top of her commands? It's because it would prove he's a complete a$$hat and that she was trying her best (including dropping multiple f-bombs) to keep them safe. Good for her. If anything, she wasn't forceful ENOUGH; should have cut the wheel, held it, and said "NOW PUSH THE GAS PEDAL YOU F**KING MORON".
If this were my student, I would have gone postal on the dumb SOB for parking it here.
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05-11-2006, 01:16 PM
#8
Burning Brakes
You'll note that the in-car audio disappears and the music ramps up right about the time that the instructor started her efforts to get ol'Numbnutz to move his car someplace else.
I would speculate that she was using her whole repertoir of skills, but the left seat had its own agenda.
Don't 'Nanny' this one to death.
I would speculate that she was using her whole repertoir of skills, but the left seat had its own agenda.
Don't 'Nanny' this one to death.
05-11-2006, 01:19 PM
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Go here:
http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/show...t=22812&page=4
And start at reply #61. That is the first response from the instructor who was in the car, and it will explain the whole situation.
She was NOT out of line, and she had every right to lose her temper with this guy.
Brian
http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/show...t=22812&page=4
And start at reply #61. That is the first response from the instructor who was in the car, and it will explain the whole situation.
She was NOT out of line, and she had every right to lose her temper with this guy.
Brian
05-11-2006, 01:24 PM
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when I was a green student, I had an instructor grab the wheel to tighten my line when I was not expecting it. When you feel the steering wheel suddenly move more than you had intended, your (or at least my) natural reaction was to pull it back. I asked my instructor to let me know the next time he felt like grabbing the wheel so he didn't spook me again.
So, as an instructor, I do not like grabbing the wheel in a students car unless it's ABSOLUTELY necessary. Was it necessary in the case of this video? I don't think so, but the instructor was probably wondering why her idiot student was driving straight at an accident. I'm sure music in the video is there so the student didn't publish to the internet, his instructor saying some like like "what the hell are you doing you moron."
I agree with the prof, a smack in the head would have been better than trying to steer the car herself.
So, as an instructor, I do not like grabbing the wheel in a students car unless it's ABSOLUTELY necessary. Was it necessary in the case of this video? I don't think so, but the instructor was probably wondering why her idiot student was driving straight at an accident. I'm sure music in the video is there so the student didn't publish to the internet, his instructor saying some like like "what the hell are you doing you moron."
I agree with the prof, a smack in the head would have been better than trying to steer the car herself.
05-11-2006, 01:27 PM
#11
Race Director
Since the driver was more concerned about taping the scene, once the instructor realized the camera was on, covering the lens with her hand could have been more effective than grabbing the steering wheel. That may have snapped the driver out of his mindset.
Of course, we're all Monday morning QB's here. Shoulda-coulda-woulda - we all have the right answers after the fact....
Ok - I'll stop.... sorry...
-Z.
Of course, we're all Monday morning QB's here. Shoulda-coulda-woulda - we all have the right answers after the fact....
Originally Posted by Prof
Don't 'Nanny' this one to death.
-Z.
05-11-2006, 01:35 PM
#13
Burning Brakes
Without the audio - it's tough to ascribe blame to her. At a minimum it appears that she should not be faulted on going for the wheel and may certaintaly have been 100% correct. For anyone else who gets target fixated on the accident - the Audi was now the impact zone.
As fodder for another thread - is that not the most horrendously dangerous staging area one has ever seen? Never been to the track, but I guarantee you I would have my student start at the back of the grid or go out half a lap late.
As fodder for another thread - is that not the most horrendously dangerous staging area one has ever seen? Never been to the track, but I guarantee you I would have my student start at the back of the grid or go out half a lap late.
05-11-2006, 01:38 PM
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It seems that IFLYSOLO has a bit of an attitude problem. Perhaps she should have grabbed his throat instead. From a BMW guy that just got back from an event at the Glen
"Actually IFLYSOLO was not ejected from the event. It was the 3rd run of the day and after the incident everyone packed up and left.
But our hero came to the Glen on monday. Gets sort of tossed from that event. http://forums.audiworld.com/s4b6/msgs/349935.phtml
People had to wait in line to bitch to the chief instructor to complain about that buttpirate. He is told he can only drive if an instructor is present so he just packs his stuff and leaves.
BTW the Evo guy had two spins that day already. In a well run event that is more than enough to ask him not to drive anymore during that event.
I don't think the event was properly run. We certainly do much better than that."
"Actually IFLYSOLO was not ejected from the event. It was the 3rd run of the day and after the incident everyone packed up and left.
But our hero came to the Glen on monday. Gets sort of tossed from that event. http://forums.audiworld.com/s4b6/msgs/349935.phtml
People had to wait in line to bitch to the chief instructor to complain about that buttpirate. He is told he can only drive if an instructor is present so he just packs his stuff and leaves.
BTW the Evo guy had two spins that day already. In a well run event that is more than enough to ask him not to drive anymore during that event.
I don't think the event was properly run. We certainly do much better than that."
05-11-2006, 01:38 PM
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Those are all just different uses of verbal communication Z, not different methods. Clearly the student was not responding to any type of input from the intstructor. As soon as the incident happened, his agenda to tape took first priority over her agenda to keep them as safe as possible. All the talking in the world isn't moving a car if the student doesn't want to and/or doesn't see a reason too. Bad bad situation for the instructor to be put in. I feel sorry for her