RJay

Agreed. At my second or third event in Whitey, back when he had a 2.5 up his butt, I got a relatively new instructor (I later was told I was his second student) who took an immediate dislike to my car. Before ever even driving it, he went through a 30+ minute disertation about all the things that were wrong with it and how they needed to be corrected. I'd add that none of the items were of a nature that the car was unworthy and prevented from going on track. While everything he said might have been true to a degree, it wasn't so much the information as the way it was delivered, which was in a rather cantankerous, "we both could be killed", kind of manner. Miraculously , we did indeed both manage to survive the experience safely and without incident. Equally interesting is that about mid morning on the second day, the instructor had actually become comfortable with my skills and as a result everyone's mood was better. When we finally parted ways, he was very helpful in listing a number of items that should receive some attention, and this time, he did it in a way that was far more easily swallowed.

The bottom line for me was that when I first took to the track that weekend after hearing, at least in my head, that my car was a pile of crap, I was neither in a good mood, nor I suspect, was I fully focused on the task at hand. Fortunately, for all concerned, I was strong enough to overcome my depression and still perform reasonably well. Nevertheless, this made for a more dangerous situation for all concerned. I would suspect that its probably wise to avoid deep criticism of the driver's car, unless the car is deemed so unworthy that it can not be allowed on track.

mitch236

I think that as long as the car is deemed safe by tech AND the instructor, then let's go driving. But if an instructor feels uncomfortable, then instead of voicing concerns to the student, a conversation with the tech steward is in order.

Geo

Amen.

I'm appalled that RJay had that experience. That's totally uncalled for.

George from MD

I suspect we're all agreeing more than we're disagreeing.

Having driven with regions other than Potomac more this year I've seen that they operate differently. There is usually not as strict a division of labor (registrar only registers for example) in some of the other regions and many of the rules are different. But I've never seen a region that didn't consider safety as paramount- only the best way to achieve it.

One the best examples I noted is Potomac's strict adherence to the long sleeved shirt and long pants rule. Other regions believe that this sort of rule is detrimental to safety- as they believe it promotes fatigue and that a comfortable driver is a safer driver. Yet they might have a requirement for fire extinguishers in a car (esp. higher run groups) where Potomac does not.

I don't think it really matters how we achieve a safe result so long as we do.

BrokeAss

Good point. I brushed my leg up against a hot 996 exhaust tip once while wearing shorts. It's not the kind of mistake you want to make twice and good example of why you would want to wear long pants.

On the other side, here in Florida - the last thing you feel like doing is wearing jeans in 90 degree heat with 100% humidity.

Some of the clubs will let you run in shorts & short sleeves. Beyond the clubs, some of the tracks mandate a dress code too. If I recall correctly Moroso motorsports park requires that our drivers wear long/long.

Alan Herod

This is not one of our events, but another group, BSR, that I occasionally instruct for. They do not pre-tech the cars before the event like Potomac, instead, all tech is done on site at the event. The tech inspector makes the decision. Assignments are not made ahead of time either. As an instructor you walk down the line of student's cars and get in one.

My thought process went something like this (background - a long time ago I raced a Z in SCCA).... I notice a 240/260 in the line and think -- cool, I know something about this car, so I walk up to the driver and introduce myself. I ask him how many track events he has had.

Student - I have never driven on the track before.
Me - How long have you been driving this car?
Student - This is my first sports car, I just got it back from the shop yesterday and drove it over here.
Me - OK, I will drive your car around the track the first two laps and point out the line and the corner worker stations.. and so forth
Student - What is a line?
Me - I explain the concept and relay that I will show him the line and BSR has put cones up to help identify the line.

I get in the stock driver's seat and he gets in the stock passenger seat, fasten the original equipment seat belts, and plug in the communicators.

Me - Some things are different from the Z I used to have. What have you done to this car?
Student - Oh, a few things, this is a race modified 350, with .... blah, blah, blah... and a three speed (some kind of automatic transmission).

I start the car and the ground shakes. I proceed to drive the car around the track pointing out all the things you are supposed to do on the orientation. I notice with partial throttle application the vehicles pulls fiendishly to one direction and must be compensated for by slight steering input. On braking the car yaws the other way. At this point I do not want to get out of this seat and get in the other ones without controls, but I pull in and we switch seats. After we switch seats, I notice the white dot on the windshield and recall why the dot was put there.

I am very thankful the student was level headed, proud of his ride and the work that he had put into it, because he did not go berserk when he began driving. I did have to cover his hand a few times after warning him what I was going to do.

JCP911S

Perhaps use of the word "culture" is misleading...(what happens when you get a Liberal Arts degree rather than learning something useful..)

Let's chage it to "procedures" or "approach" to wit:

I went to a Corvette event years ago where a car threw dirt on the track and the corner workers ran out in the middle of a sesion to sweep ot off...and didn;t even throw a yellow.

In Ferrari club, instructors are effectively optional for stundents. We had a Ferrari guy come to our event in like and f40 or something and throw a fit about having to have an instructor... every time I looked over he was jawing at the DE chair or the CI about it... actually they both have more important things to do...(BTW he really sucked as a driver)

Another Corvette guy came to an event will a full race, full aero-bodied, 700HP ZR-1. He had alot of track days but we won't let a new guy run solo unless we know him. He was so abustive to the instructor, and driving so wildly that the instructor basically told him to "slow the f*ck down", and refused to get back in the car... tbased on his track days, hey let him go out solo and he put the car head on into the wall at about 100mph....... we should have kicked him out, but were trying to be "nice"...

We invited the Viper Club to run with us one year, and, frankly, quite a few of them behaved like total ********...refusing to give pass signals, holding people up in turns, running up people's asses in the straights and flashing thier lights..and when we suggested they be a bit more careful about pass signals, they generally acted very tribal and snotty to us... it got so bad I was afraid we were going to have a fist-fight in the instuctors meeting... it as a very bad experience...

I had another guy in a Corvette who was truely atrocious... not only didn't he get it, I couldn't get him to do anything the same three times in a row.... second day he walked up and thanked me and told me that he didn;t need me anymore as he was going to go out in Black to be with his friends... (it was good for a laugh or two with the other instructors)

I am NOT saying that "Corvette" guys or "Ferrari" guys are jerks... (I have my own deal with Vipers... that's my own problem and I will keep it to myself) We have guys in the club with Ferraris, and we have alot of Corvette and BMW and even Tuner Car guys that run with us and they are neat people... they know the rules and fit in perfrectly...many of htem instruct for us.

IF these same guys has been driving Porsches they would still be exactly the same ******** that they were...

I have a Corvette and I'm not an ******* (just take my word for it.... no need to bother anybody else asking..... )

My point is it is very serious business running a DE safely and PCA (among alot of other clubs) focuses hard on getting the stutents' heads on straight from day one and keeping them straight... If I get a new guy from PCA or BMW club, I can be pretty sure they understand whats going on....

I don;t think it is "snobby" to expect guests at the club to understand our rules and play by them.

Geo

Ahhhhhh.... The joy of trying to interpret the written word.

OK, I'm right there with you!

I feel if someone can't or won't play by the rules - especially very reasonable ones, then..

OMG, visions of various scenes from various movies come to mind. Yikes!

Very sadly, they apparently don't marshal the track very well either.

Oh brother.

Amen to that. No room for that at a DE.

I agree fully. Thanks for the clarification. I also fully endorse everything you said about safety and keeping people's heads on straight. One of the nice things about the SE-R Club's annual convention DE is that generally I don't have to worry about big egos or attitude. The people who instruct for us are racers and/or long time DE participants. The newbies listen and the intermediates know not to get out of hand or we'll sit them down for the day if we need to. But we have a relatively small group and that certainly makes it much easier to control. Plus almost nobody with an SE-R (quick as they are) goes out there believing that because they bought the car they are suddenly the reincarnation of Senna.

bruinbro

OK, I never got my question answered. Does it belong in a new thread?

Bruinbro

JCP911S

? Soryy, so busy answering, I missed the question.....

Geo... just setting record straight... always appreciate your posts...

bruinbro

Just a little reminder...

Bruinbro

944Ecology

So, the bottom line is that it is up to the organizing PCA region as to what they want their DE program to be.

If that particular region want only 914-4 on slicks, then so be it.

That's why you need to volunteer in your local region and get involved in the decision making to influence the region into becoming what you want it to be. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

gb

nkhalidi

I'll lend a non-Porsche owner perspective here. I have an E46 M3 which I've modified for track use: rollbar, full suspension, stoptechs, race seats, etc. No motor/exhaust/drivetrain modifications. At our local PCA events (Suncoast region - I think a few Suncoast guys are on this thread), I always bring my M3. We have a PCA family membership, and while there is one Porsche in our family, there are other sports cars as well.

The Suncoast staff has been very hospitable to me. They've never given me grief about bringing a non-Porsche to their events at Sebring, and they're a fun group to run with (except for the overcrowding of pit stalls, but that's another story!). However, a few Porsche owners seem to resent my presence when my grocery-getter BMW passes their purpose-built racing Porsche. A few people asked me why I come to PCA events, one guy demanded I open my hood and show him my supercharger (my car's motor is stock), and others have walked round and round my car and commented about how they didn't realize an M3 could go that fast.

It's gotta be disconcerting to some Porsche guys when their pristine, classic Porsche gets passed by a car with the trunk and engine on wrong ends, and I think that's where some animosity from PCA members toward non-Porsches at their track events stems.

sjanes

I don't think that attitiude is limited to PCA members though. A PCA instructor that I know drives his highly modified 930 at PCA events, but his street M3 at the BMW events. When I asked him why bother taking the BMW street car when he has a 911 track car, he said the BMW guys were kind of cold on him when he had the 911.

onasled

Wow, I guess it really is different everywhere you go. Most BMWCCA DE events I've been too are problably only 50% BMWs. I love that because it's that much more fun seeing other cars from tricked Porsches to Golfs to Radicals to cobras, ect.