toma nova

Based on this outcome, I will continue to instruct and drive PCA DE events but will no longer participate in any combined CR / DE weekends.

multi21

Our family have been members of PCA for nearly 20 years. We will not be renewing.

dgrobs

While this may not have been the outcome some here were looking for, I love PCA and I’m sticking around. Way too many friends and way too many good times in the paddocks for me to just walk away. I hope Todd does the same with CVR.

This situation could have, and should have, been handled differently by BOTH sides involved, not just the club. Yes, Todd should have handled it differently as well.

I know there are a lot of people lurking this thread who are as upset with Todd as they are with PCA CR. I’ve been told so in various paddocks many times.

As far as my thoughts go, I agree that Todd could have handled this very differently, and CR could have done the same.
Todd was stubborn, he lost.
CR was stubborn, they lost.
Both parties acting like children didn’t help.

While some here think this was a sad outcome, there are plenty here who think exactly the opposite. I happen to be in the middle and feel both parties are at fault.

Sad that Todd lost his license.
Sad that CR lost Todd.

Regardless, PCA has changed my life in a positive way and I’m hanging around.

Something that very few here know about, I had some real issues with a higher up in NNJR a bunch of years back. I was treated like, and talked to (via email) like a piece of chit. I was even told at one point by this person (Track Chair at the time) that I was a dishonest person that couldn’t be trusted and I wasn’t allowed in tower anymore at our DE events. I was volunteering a lot for NNJR at the time. I felt it was almost like a calling for me for the great things that PCA, and NNJR in particular, did for me. The racetrack changed my life for the better, and NNJR was the start of it all for me. For that I am forever grateful to NNJR.

Ok, back to my story.
Got two very nasty emails from this person at the time, and both seemed to come out of nowhere. I loved NNJR and I loved the racetrack, so I wasn’t going to quit doing DEs. My ultimate goal was to become an instructor and pay forward what all the great and awesome NNJR instructors did for me.

Due to the way this higher up treated me, I started exploring other regions besides NNJR and started doing DEs with a lot of them. I still did NNJR DEs, but the way this person was treating me turned me off to NNJR, something I could never imagine ever happening because of how much I loved NNJR and the friends I had made there, mostly paddock pals that led to friendships outside the paddock.

What I found was other regions that took me in and treated me like family. Couldn’t have been a bigger difference from what I had just experienced with my home region. I found Potomac. I found Niagara. I found others as well. I was welcomed by all of them and treated with the courtesy and respect that I used to feel with my home region.

I didn’t give NNJR (or this particular person) any crap or attitude like what Todd gave Club Racing.
I didn’t want to jeopardize my relationship with NNJR and PCA as a whole. Instead, I found other regions to run with (and who I have continued to run with regularly), and I still instruct at many NNJR DEs, but my love for NNJR was badly shaken, so I just found that love with other regions. I gave no one any attitude. I showed no one any disrespect. I didn’t threaten anyone and I didn’t insult or demean anyone.

I just stayed respectful, did what I was told, ended up becoming an instructor with other regions before I went through the NNJR instructor training, and here I am, still happy as a clam with PCA as a whole, and I instruct with numerous PCA regions, including my home region NNJR, the amazing drivers and instructors at Potomac, and the gold standard that is Niagara.

Point is, I didn’t get nasty with the person who started giving me the crap to begin with. I just found other avenues to feed the jones, and I am the better driver and instructor for it.

As mentioned above, both parties involved in this CR mess could have, and should have, handled themselves very differently. In my opinion, both sides lost, and that’s a real shame.

As for me, I just didn’t let that person get to me (although I was very upset at first because of how much I loved NNJR), and I found other regions that were very happy to have me. Win win for me as opposed to the loss loss for Todd and CR.

Thought my experience might be relevant here.
This is the first time I’ve brought this up in public since it happened so many years ago.

I am hoping upon hope that both Todd and PCA CR find some common ground, but at this point, I don’t see that happening, and that’s a shame and that’s very sad. Lose lose for both.

MSR Racer

this is a very unfortunate outcome indeed. However, I agree that this was also avoidable.

ProCoach

Unfortunately not, it appears.

Who has some stickers for my race car at Lime Rock Labor Day?

85Gold

Todd is my hero he felt something was wrong and didn't roll over. 🍻 Bonus points as he is a winner by dropping ~40# and counting. 🍻🍻

I almost never run PCA events probably less than 10 in the last 15 years so my staying or leaving isn't going to affect them either way. TBS my membership runs out this month and I will not support PCA again.

Peter

tgsmith4845

“the privilege to race with PCA Club Racing…” Sheesh.

ProCoach

In this day and age of not “when do you race,” but “where do you race,” and coupled with the falling trend line of entries for the CR program, that is no great shakes.

This statement is emblematic of the same kind of attitude of entitlement that leads to incidents on track.

While I respect the viewpoint and observations of @dgrobs, what he is talking about is apples (DE and DE culture) and oranges (PCA Club Racing). Just not comparable, in THIS case.

DE’s are still growing for some of the more progressive, active Regions, while Club Racing entries continue to fall as eligible drivers seek other, better alternatives.

I can only add that the founder of PCA Club Racing is someone I still see often at the track, racing his terrific cars, but NOT in PCA Club Racing… Sad.

dgrobs

Racing and HPDE are indeed apples and oranges, no doubt.
Not the point of my post, which was, in no uncertain terms, simply a comparison of 2 different ways to handle similar situations.
In Todd’s situation, everybody lost.
In my example, exactly the opposite.
Yes, CR and DE are two very different things for sure. Sorry if I implied otherwise.

ProCoach

I hear you. You did the right thing, for you.

No one in DE is going to say "not only can you not drive, but we're going to suspend your driving privileges with our club for a year." Not unless they do something really stupid or a danger to themselves or others. Neither of those were in play here, AFAIK.

It's just a shame that people have to be concerned with how negative feedback or an adverse reaction to a fellow volunteer (or volunteers) in a "higher position" in an amateur club might potentially impact their relationship and future participation with a Region or with The Club.

That's crazy, IMO. But, not a new problem...

multi21

I see it as exposing the hypocrisy or better yet, an illogical rule that was exposed to sunlight. Unfortunately, most people don't care, unless their ox is being gored.

needmoregarage

@dgrobs I completely understand why you approached your situation in the way that you did. And you got the outcome you wanted. Congrats on that. It was your situation and your choice.

But for me…it falls slightly short of “win-win”. Nothing at NNJR has changed (that you know of). The person who disrespected you may continue to do that to other people in the future (and likely will as people don’t tend to change without a lot of reason, and even then…change is tough).

Todd was trying to make a positive change in the organization that would benefit everyone. And he did so knowing that he might end up sacrificing something he loved and received personal joy from. Yes…he cut of his nose to spite his face, but he did so because he refused to tolerate being disrespected and treated in an unfair manner. And he did so (as I interpret) to improve the overall organization, and to stand up for what he believed was right.

Todd lost and PCA “won”. But PCA will continue forward in the very same way that caused them to lose Todd, and now others. And NNJR will continue forward doing the same thing to people, and not everyone will respond the way you did.

And frankly, WHY should you allow someone to treat you disrespectfully, for absolutely no reason? I understand what you wrote, but I could not take that same path. If people don’t stand up to mistreatment, then nothing changes.

Lastly, Todd gave PCA AMPLE time to respond before going public. He states that the issue started on Feb. 27. His first post is dated April 5. Why does that not “count”? Many are critical of Todd’s actions by making it public. Why isn’t anyone critical of PCA for being unable to provide answers in a reasonable period of time? (demonstrated by the weeks of time Todd gave them before going public).

It seems to me PCA was given a fair amount of grace which they squandered.

Manifold

These problems in PCA and other such social clubs have always been there and will always be there. There's no point yelling at the clouds about it. If someone wants to participate in club activities, it's best to associate with agreeable people, avoid associating with disagreeable people, and not pick fights one can't win. Luigi could have resolved this in his favor by simply biting his tongue when he was disrespected and providing the data. Instead, he escalated a small skirmish with one person into a war with the leadership of an organization, and he lost the war. The organization suffered some damage also, but Luigi gained nothing from inflicting that damage except perhaps some feeling of justice.

jdistefa

Disagree. I think he raised an important point. You can disagree with his style but not substance.

I have been largely silent about it until now but I will tell you that I resigned from the medical committee over this matter.

I'm really disappointed about the outcome in all respects.

Manifold

Please elaborate.