PCA equal restraint rule + HANS/harnesses
#46
Well this thread certainly heated up!
This is all good feedback, thank you.
Some of the regions I've run with recently had harness/HANS related drop downs integrated into the registration process, which is nice, but in the end safety mismatch situations still occurred due to last minute instructor assignment changes or non-driver checkouts not having a HANS.
That said I can and will definitely be more proactive and assertive about requesting changes.
This is the correct way to do it send a notice or fill out DE registration form indicating you need an instructor with a HANS to fulfill the equal restraint national requirement and then request a confirmation from Registrar that your request was received, never down grade safety for any reason.
Rich
Rich
@bswift Start with the event organizer in advance and let them know your set up and need for an INST with Hans/Hybrid (your set up is not common for a student car). If at the event and this has not been solved in advanced, request a change in in INST to one that has a HANS/Hybrid. Your safety downgrade concerns are valid. The rules shared so far are for PCA insured non-profit / volunteer led events.
If anyone happens to get assigned an INST that doesn't mesh with your personality (or your safety gear), my advice - see the organizer, check the attitude, and work on solutions not divisions.
If anyone happens to get assigned an INST that doesn't mesh with your personality (or your safety gear), my advice - see the organizer, check the attitude, and work on solutions not divisions.
Firstly, lets hope as someone already mentioned, that this could be worked out with an instructor swap. I'm a big guy and I've had a couple of situation where I could not fit comfortably in a car with small race seats. Too many swedish fish! We just swapped instructors and there is no reason why that couldn't happen with the OP.
I have a second helmet which I use only to instruct because my other helmet has a top blower attachment and can scratch the headliner of street cars. It also gives me the headroom I need for certain cars with street seats. Most days where I am driving and instructing I have two helmets with me.
My expectation as an instructor is to be provided equal seating and restraints as the driver. If I don't want to wear gloves, a HANS, a race suit, etc., that is all on me. I don't see how that is unfair in the least.
I have a second helmet which I use only to instruct because my other helmet has a top blower attachment and can scratch the headliner of street cars. It also gives me the headroom I need for certain cars with street seats. Most days where I am driving and instructing I have two helmets with me.
My expectation as an instructor is to be provided equal seating and restraints as the driver. If I don't want to wear gloves, a HANS, a race suit, etc., that is all on me. I don't see how that is unfair in the least.
Some of the regions I've run with recently had harness/HANS related drop downs integrated into the registration process, which is nice, but in the end safety mismatch situations still occurred due to last minute instructor assignment changes or non-driver checkouts not having a HANS.
That said I can and will definitely be more proactive and assertive about requesting changes.
#47
There is usually a good reason for rules changes.I could see it being largely because having one body flopping around next to one that is perfectly rigid is a safety concern. There are real world examples of where people died strapped in to a car but some guy flopping around actually caused their death. It is common for people to post on this forum with feelings on what is safer, without actually understanding that they're increasing risk. Just because something feels safer from a position of ignorance doesn't mean it is. PCA is one of the most ****, if not most ****, organizations for safety and rules, so if they require something, it's probably vetted pretty heavily on the safety angle.
I assume the rule also is because of people like 2024cayman who couldn't care less about 'the help' sitting next to him and stories like mine of what kind of cars on the fringes show up. Someone at some point was probably like, you know what, zero tolerance starts now, I'm done dealing with entitled idiots thinking they 'pay my wages' when I'm a volunteer organizer.
This is also quite literally a problem that would never be a problem either where I am. Almost no car shows up to a HPDE needing an instructor with a harness and guy running a hans. That'd be extremely rare and somewhat weird, but virtually every instructor I know road races so we all have HANS. I rarely bring mine, but I know a lot of others do because they're often using them in their own car. I can't speak for that region on who actually instructs but I'd be surprised if there wasn't someone else with a HANS to swap with.
This is also a PCA event. Green is so slow from experience and pace, that I've yet to see an off in green group. I'm not seeing anyone pushing braking zones, or maximum attacking a corner, or anywhere near the edge. Yellow is also pretty slow. I feel like most people are still miles away from the edge in yellow and no one is pushing anywhere that hard. The risk of an incident should be extremely low. As long as the student is listening to hte instructor and the instructor is in control it should be almost non-existent. That's my experience from instructing at 2 different PCA chapters anyway.
P.S. For the record I don't have a problem riding without a hans next to someone that does. But you gotta follow the rules of the organization that runs it. It is most likely an insurance sign off requirement so arguing about it isn't going to get anywhere. There is also a shortage of qualified instructors and only an idiot thinks your average instructor does it for the free track time and owes the student. I use probably 10% of my free track time.
I assume the rule also is because of people like 2024cayman who couldn't care less about 'the help' sitting next to him and stories like mine of what kind of cars on the fringes show up. Someone at some point was probably like, you know what, zero tolerance starts now, I'm done dealing with entitled idiots thinking they 'pay my wages' when I'm a volunteer organizer.
This is also quite literally a problem that would never be a problem either where I am. Almost no car shows up to a HPDE needing an instructor with a harness and guy running a hans. That'd be extremely rare and somewhat weird, but virtually every instructor I know road races so we all have HANS. I rarely bring mine, but I know a lot of others do because they're often using them in their own car. I can't speak for that region on who actually instructs but I'd be surprised if there wasn't someone else with a HANS to swap with.
This is also a PCA event. Green is so slow from experience and pace, that I've yet to see an off in green group. I'm not seeing anyone pushing braking zones, or maximum attacking a corner, or anywhere near the edge. Yellow is also pretty slow. I feel like most people are still miles away from the edge in yellow and no one is pushing anywhere that hard. The risk of an incident should be extremely low. As long as the student is listening to hte instructor and the instructor is in control it should be almost non-existent. That's my experience from instructing at 2 different PCA chapters anyway.
P.S. For the record I don't have a problem riding without a hans next to someone that does. But you gotta follow the rules of the organization that runs it. It is most likely an insurance sign off requirement so arguing about it isn't going to get anywhere. There is also a shortage of qualified instructors and only an idiot thinks your average instructor does it for the free track time and owes the student. I use probably 10% of my free track time.
Last edited by Zhao; 07-06-2023 at 07:07 PM.
#48
I have a hybrid hans on my short list of stuff to buy, this thread tells me there's not a lot of point in buying one at this time, because I don't think I've seen more than 5 drivers total at the track with a hans. Not one of my instructors or the others I've seen or spoken with seem to have a hans anywhere at hand and I've been actively looking to see who's wearing them at the last few days. Since I can't wear a hans with an instructor that doesn't have one, that's a thou that'd just sit in the pits unless I'm soloing.
#49
I have a hybrid hans on my short list of stuff to buy, this thread tells me there's not a lot of point in buying one at this time, because I don't think I've seen more than 5 drivers total at the track with a hans. Not one of my instructors or the others I've seen or spoken with seem to have a hans anywhere at hand and I've been actively looking to see who's wearing them at the last few days. Since I can't wear a hans with an instructor that doesn't have one, that's a thou that'd just sit in the pits unless I'm soloing.
The following 2 users liked this post by Olemiss540:
2024CaymanS (07-06-2023),
Zhao (07-06-2023)
#50
This is also a PCA event. Green is so slow from experience and pace, that I've yet to see an off in green group. I'm not seeing anyone pushing braking zones, or maximum attacking a corner, or anywhere near the edge. Yellow is also pretty slow. I feel like most people are still miles away from the edge in yellow and no one is pushing anywhere that hard. The risk of an incident should be extremely low. As long as the student is listening to hte instructor and the instructor is in control it should be almost non-existent. That's my experience from instructing at 2 different PCA chapters anyway.
#51
There is usually a good reason for rules changes.I could see it being largely because having one body flopping around next to one that is perfectly rigid is a safety concern. There are real world examples of where people died strapped in to a car but some guy flopping around actually caused their death. It is common for people to post on this forum with feelings on what is safer, without actually understanding that they're increasing risk. Just because something feels safer from a position of ignorance doesn't mean it is. PCA is one of the most ****, if not most ****, organizations for safety and rules, so if they require something, it's probably vetted pretty heavily on the safety angle.
I dont believe there is any rule that says if your instructor chooses to not wear a hans and instead wear a 3 point, the student HAS to do the same but that seems to be what you are implying.
Last edited by Olemiss540; 07-06-2023 at 07:23 PM.
The following users liked this post:
2024CaymanS (07-06-2023)
#52
There is usually a good reason for rules changes.I could see it being largely because having one body flopping around next to one that is perfectly rigid is a safety concern. There are real world examples of where people died strapped in to a car but some guy flopping around actually caused their death. It is common for people to post on this forum with feelings on what is safer, without actually understanding that they're increasing risk. Just because something feels safer from a position of ignorance doesn't mean it is. PCA is one of the most ****, if not most ****, organizations for safety and rules, so if they require something, it's probably vetted pretty heavily on the safety angle.
I assume the rule also is because of people like 2024cayman who couldn't care less about 'the help' sitting next to him and stories like mine of what kind of cars on the fringes show up. Someone at some point was probably like, you know what, zero tolerance starts now, I'm done dealing with entitled idiots thinking they 'pay my wages' when I'm a volunteer organizer.
This is also quite literally a problem that would never be a problem either where I am. Almost no car shows up to a HPDE needing an instructor with a harness and guy running a hans. That'd be extremely rare and somewhat weird, but virtually every instructor I know road races so we all have HANS. I rarely bring mine, but I know a lot of others do because they're often using them in their own car. I can't speak for that region on who actually instructs but I'd be surprised if there wasn't someone else with a HANS to swap with.
This is also a PCA event. Green is so slow from experience and pace, that I've yet to see an off in green group. I'm not seeing anyone pushing braking zones, or maximum attacking a corner, or anywhere near the edge. Yellow is also pretty slow. I feel like most people are still miles away from the edge in yellow and no one is pushing anywhere that hard. The risk of an incident should be extremely low. As long as the student is listening to hte instructor and the instructor is in control it should be almost non-existent. That's my experience from instructing at 2 different PCA chapters anyway.
P.S. For the record I don't have a problem riding without a hans next to someone that does. But you gotta follow the rules of the organization that runs it. It is most likely an insurance sign off requirement so arguing about it isn't going to get anywhere. There is also a shortage of qualified instructors and only an idiot thinks your average instructor does it for the free track time and owes the student. I use probably 10% of my free track time.
I assume the rule also is because of people like 2024cayman who couldn't care less about 'the help' sitting next to him and stories like mine of what kind of cars on the fringes show up. Someone at some point was probably like, you know what, zero tolerance starts now, I'm done dealing with entitled idiots thinking they 'pay my wages' when I'm a volunteer organizer.
This is also quite literally a problem that would never be a problem either where I am. Almost no car shows up to a HPDE needing an instructor with a harness and guy running a hans. That'd be extremely rare and somewhat weird, but virtually every instructor I know road races so we all have HANS. I rarely bring mine, but I know a lot of others do because they're often using them in their own car. I can't speak for that region on who actually instructs but I'd be surprised if there wasn't someone else with a HANS to swap with.
This is also a PCA event. Green is so slow from experience and pace, that I've yet to see an off in green group. I'm not seeing anyone pushing braking zones, or maximum attacking a corner, or anywhere near the edge. Yellow is also pretty slow. I feel like most people are still miles away from the edge in yellow and no one is pushing anywhere that hard. The risk of an incident should be extremely low. As long as the student is listening to hte instructor and the instructor is in control it should be almost non-existent. That's my experience from instructing at 2 different PCA chapters anyway.
P.S. For the record I don't have a problem riding without a hans next to someone that does. But you gotta follow the rules of the organization that runs it. It is most likely an insurance sign off requirement so arguing about it isn't going to get anywhere. There is also a shortage of qualified instructors and only an idiot thinks your average instructor does it for the free track time and owes the student. I use probably 10% of my free track time.
I've seen offs in both beginner and intermediate groups across multiple regions. There was a situation at an event recently where a solo driver was so slow, they were basically parked on line over the crest of a blind corner and very nearly caused a multi-car accident. Slow and/or instructed does not always mean safe.
I have a hybrid hans on my short list of stuff to buy, this thread tells me there's not a lot of point in buying one at this time, because I don't think I've seen more than 5 drivers total at the track with a hans. Not one of my instructors or the others I've seen or spoken with seem to have a hans anywhere at hand and I've been actively looking to see who's wearing them at the last few days. Since I can't wear a hans with an instructor that doesn't have one, that's a thou that'd just sit in the pits unless I'm soloing.
This may have been true in the 90s, but sure is not true now. Cars nowadays are so fast it is very easy to get in real trouble even in a lower group. Even a green student in a 992 GT3 is going to be going 130mph down the straight at a bigger track like the Glen or Road America. You make a smaller mistake at that speed and it has consequences. Even with the nannies.
Both occupants of the vehicle must have and use the same type of restraint system. If harnesses are installed and used by either occupant, a HANS device is required. No HANS for one occupant means no harnesses can be used for either occupant.
Last edited by bswift; 07-06-2023 at 09:13 PM.
The following users liked this post:
nineball (07-07-2023)
#53
I have a hybrid hans on my short list of stuff to buy, this thread tells me there's not a lot of point in buying one at this time, because I don't think I've seen more than 5 drivers total at the track with a hans. Not one of my instructors or the others I've seen or spoken with seem to have a hans anywhere at hand and I've been actively looking to see who's wearing them at the last few days. Since I can't wear a hans with an instructor that doesn't have one, that's a thou that'd just sit in the pits unless I'm soloing.
Last edited by 2024CaymanS; 07-06-2023 at 09:35 PM.
#54
There is usually a good reason for rules changes.I could see it being largely because having one body flopping around next to one that is perfectly rigid is a safety concern. There are real world examples of where people died strapped in to a car but some guy flopping around actually caused their death. It is common for people to post on this forum with feelings on what is safer, without actually understanding that they're increasing risk. Just because something feels safer from a position of ignorance doesn't mean it is. PCA is one of the most ****, if not most ****, organizations for safety and rules, so if they require something, it's probably vetted pretty heavily on the safety angle.
I assume the rule also is because of people like 2024cayman who couldn't care less about 'the help' sitting next to him and stories like mine of what kind of cars on the fringes show up. Someone at some point was probably like, you know what, zero tolerance starts now, I'm done dealing with entitled idiots thinking they 'pay my wages' when I'm a volunteer organizer.
This is also quite literally a problem that would never be a problem either where I am. Almost no car shows up to a HPDE needing an instructor with a harness and guy running a hans. That'd be extremely rare and somewhat weird, but virtually every instructor I know road races so we all have HANS. I rarely bring mine, but I know a lot of others do because they're often using them in their own car. I can't speak for that region on who actually instructs but I'd be surprised if there wasn't someone else with a HANS to swap with.
This is also a PCA event. Green is so slow from experience and pace, that I've yet to see an off in green group. I'm not seeing anyone pushing braking zones, or maximum attacking a corner, or anywhere near the edge. Yellow is also pretty slow. I feel like most people are still miles away from the edge in yellow and no one is pushing anywhere that hard. The risk of an incident should be extremely low. As long as the student is listening to hte instructor and the instructor is in control it should be almost non-existent. That's my experience from instructing at 2 different PCA chapters anyway.
P.S. For the record I don't have a problem riding without a hans next to someone that does. But you gotta follow the rules of the organization that runs it. It is most likely an insurance sign off requirement so arguing about it isn't going to get anywhere. There is also a shortage of qualified instructors and only an idiot thinks your average instructor does it for the free track time and owes the student. I use probably 10% of my free track time.
I assume the rule also is because of people like 2024cayman who couldn't care less about 'the help' sitting next to him and stories like mine of what kind of cars on the fringes show up. Someone at some point was probably like, you know what, zero tolerance starts now, I'm done dealing with entitled idiots thinking they 'pay my wages' when I'm a volunteer organizer.
This is also quite literally a problem that would never be a problem either where I am. Almost no car shows up to a HPDE needing an instructor with a harness and guy running a hans. That'd be extremely rare and somewhat weird, but virtually every instructor I know road races so we all have HANS. I rarely bring mine, but I know a lot of others do because they're often using them in their own car. I can't speak for that region on who actually instructs but I'd be surprised if there wasn't someone else with a HANS to swap with.
This is also a PCA event. Green is so slow from experience and pace, that I've yet to see an off in green group. I'm not seeing anyone pushing braking zones, or maximum attacking a corner, or anywhere near the edge. Yellow is also pretty slow. I feel like most people are still miles away from the edge in yellow and no one is pushing anywhere that hard. The risk of an incident should be extremely low. As long as the student is listening to hte instructor and the instructor is in control it should be almost non-existent. That's my experience from instructing at 2 different PCA chapters anyway.
P.S. For the record I don't have a problem riding without a hans next to someone that does. But you gotta follow the rules of the organization that runs it. It is most likely an insurance sign off requirement so arguing about it isn't going to get anywhere. There is also a shortage of qualified instructors and only an idiot thinks your average instructor does it for the free track time and owes the student. I use probably 10% of my free track time.
who are you to tell me what safety measures I take. You’re just an instructor. You don’t have any relationship with me. My family wants me home…in one piece. If I have a six point harness in both seats and I’m in mine with Hans and you don’t want to wear it. Your fault and find me someone who will. If I have three point belts on both seats and I wear a hybrid Hans and you don’t well obviously your dumb and haven’t really seen on track issues. I’ve seen enough YouTube videos to justify my safety. Just go on your way. You’re still not getting OP view. He had everything set but his instructor didn’t. Get with the program. The rules were clearly stated…in this thread.
#55
OP: Still not sure why there wasn't an instructor swap as there are always instructors running hans where I am. Seems weird that there was no instructor available with a hans, like is this an area that has zero road racing? or are they so short on instructors that they're just pulling from newish hpde guys to instruct?
I have a hybrid hans on my short list of stuff to buy, this thread tells me there's not a lot of point in buying one at this time, because I don't think I've seen more than 5 drivers total at the track with a hans. Not one of my instructors or the others I've seen or spoken with seem to have a hans anywhere at hand and I've been actively looking to see who's wearing them at the last few days. Since I can't wear a hans with an instructor that doesn't have one, that's a thou that'd just sit in the pits unless I'm soloing.
Last edited by Zhao; 07-06-2023 at 10:15 PM.
The following users liked this post:
thebishman (07-07-2023)
#57
SmH about where this thread is going. Seems to me that some are so entitled that they are not willing to accept reality and/or willing to adapt; all within the rules of whatever organization they run with of course.
#58
I wonder why instructors don’t all have Simpson Hybrids to allow them to be safer in three point belt cars and six point harness cars. Isn’t that the simplest approach? Am I missing something or does that not avoid this situation?
The following 3 users liked this post by steveP911:
#59
From this thread I have gathered that 1) some instructors are legit and won’t compromise safety and they have it or a true Hans for harness systems 2) others don’t care and their egos are too big to understand that anything can happen on a track even with a newb.
#60
Race Director
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 11,348
Likes: 462
From: Oceanside/Vista (N. San Diego County), CA
I got our local PCA board to approve me buying 10 HANS and helmet pairs in multiple sizes, for just such a situation. Usually it is the student that needs to borrow a HANS.
The following users liked this post:
2024CaymanS (07-07-2023)