Ximian

I tried buying a Hybrid S earlier this year but they weren't in stock anywhere. It's also quite a bit of money for something to use in a student's vehicle for the one or two events per year some of us instruct. If your student has harnesses, you're probably going to pick the HANS device over the Hybrid S anyway.

winders

From this thread I have learned that: 1. You think you are the center o the universe. 2. I am glad I am not instructor as I will never get stuck with you as a student.

JTT

...and remember, instructors are VOLUNTEERS. Expecting them to buy $1500-2000 devices strictly to volunteer instruct a few times a year is a reach. If they are active racers, like many, they are likely using a traditional HANS in their race car.

There are also concerns from some that Hybrid S can distort/scratch/damage leather.

177mph

The OP's question was solved in the third post of this thread. The rest is just chatter.....

Glyndellis

Well, it is still Rennlist. I'm quite impressed that it got so far without a discussion including hookers and blow.

38D

A head and neck restraint from a reputable brand (sparco) can be had for <400. For instructors that don’t already have one, you really should consider the consequences.. we’ve grown used to the illusion that this sport is safe, as top level drivers rarely die as frequently as they used to. But it still has dangers. We should all be encouraging people to be as safe as possible, including students, if for no other reason than ensuring the hobby doesn’t get litigated out of existence by insurance companies. I’ve mostly given up instructing because the cars are just too fast amping up the potential consequences.

2024CaymanS

Yes. I’ll admit it. Unlike some ego filled people in this thread. When my life, and my safety are of concern I AM the center of the universe. You don’t know me. Judge me based on my typing. We’ve proved that the OP was right in this scenario and the instructor was out of line. Good Day Sir.

nineball

as posted no one instructs for the money and the hybrid s is quiet expensive. given your logic one may wonder why ALL drivers using 3-point belts do not own and use a hybrid s - it's a personal, and expensive, choice. harnesses are safer than 3-point so one may wonder why every car on track does not have them - same reason - cost.

sounds like you may want to re-read #2 and then take a look in the mirror.

the hybrid s IS a HANS device. Head And Neck Support. due to the design it is the only HANS device that is approved for both 3-point and harnesses as it straps around your chest. a typical HANS device will ONLY work with 5-6 point harnesses.

docwyte

Wow, ok. This rule is really cut and dry and has been interpreted properly. Yes, if your instructor doesn't have a hans, then both drivers need to wear 3 point belts. Preferably that's something that gets worked out either ahead of time, or after the drivers meeting so an instructor who has a hans can be assigned to that car.

Like many I haven't seen too many (any?) cars in the Green group that are equipped with rollbar/seats/5-6 point harnesses, so this really is rare occurrence. Many (most?) of the instructors in RMR have some sort of Hans/simpson hybrid s setup, so finding an instructor with one shouldn't be too hard.
That being said, there are lots of regions with lots of instructors and not everyone races or has harnesses in their cars, so doesn't necessarily own one. Asking/requiring a volunteer instructor to pay $1200+ for a Hybrid S, or $4-500 for a Hans just so they can instruct isn't really fair to the instructor and will make getting people to volunteer to be instructors even harder. The right play is to have the club purchase a few Hybrid S' for the instructors to use, if needed. Of course, the club then needs to have the funds to pay for them.

I can't talk for other regions, but instructors/volunteers get a very, very small credit towards their track day with RMR. So we're hardly getting free track time and no, you as a student aren't paying for us to be there. It's wholly due to the instructors good graces that they've decided to get into the right hand seat of your car and risk themselves. Since PCA NA is running the show rules wise, yeah, if they don't have a hans, you need to accept that you're going to have to run a 3 point belt, just like the instructor. Then dial it back on the track in ensure both of you are safe, which is something that you ought to be doing no matter what sort of seat belt you're wearing btw. The fact that someone has put their life in your hands should weigh heavily on you and you should take your responsibility to them very seriously.

Ximian

The marketing names muddle things up along with HANS being a division under Simpson Racing. The preferred generic way to refer to both the HANS and Hybrid S seems to be FHR (Frontal Head Restraint) which is now being used by a lot of vendors that sell the HANS devices and things like the Schroth XLT and Pro devices. I think everyone knows what you mean when you say "HANS device" (I, II, or III) to be the original device meant to work with 5 or 6 point harnesses, which also includes the Schroth XLT/Pro devices based on the similar design.

Mahler9th

An interesting thread...

I first saw a HANS device in use in the 80's (when Mr. Downing started wearing his).

I started instructing at PCA track events and with other groups in the mid-90's. Started using a HANS device in about 2005 or 2006. Initially only on race weekends but within a few events I started wearing it any time on track. Before use was mandated.

I was responsible for the rules each year for our racing organization for over a decade and during this time I annually reviewed SFI, FIA, PCA, BMWCCA, SCCA and a host of other specs and rules.

I also interacted with safety equipment experts, for example at OG Racing and HMS. Mr. Love and Mr. Marko.

These folks were excellent and gracious resources.

If I recall correctly, back in the olden days there were no national PCA rules or guidelines for DE/TT.

So I have seen a lot of evolution in rules...

One thing that I feel bears mention is that all of these restraint systems are designed to be implemented in certain ways... for example with a HANS device the shoulder belt angle used to be, and likely still is specified in DFUs. Drivers, instructors, tech inspectors et cetera, should be aware of the DFUs and ensure that they are properly followed.

I remember many years ago visiting an equipment store at a local track when a fellow PCA instructor was purchasing a HANS device for use in his street car-- I think it was a 996. At the time, use was not mandated.

The three of us had a nice chat and it was clear that this fellow instructor had no idea about the changes he'd need to make to his street car to be able to use the HANS in a manner consistent with the DFUs.

Now that I have learned that head and neck restraint use is mandated for passengers in some scenarios, I think it is important for folks to remember that compliance with product DFUs is important for the right seat as well.

Perhaps that "culture" is already out there... but I feel it is worth mentioning.

nineball

true, but they all perform the same function and as an instructor i would not buy a typical HANS over a hybrid s as you suggested. the hybrid will work in all scenarios where i can only use a typical HANS with harnesses.

Mahler9th

And remember adoption of new safety technology has often not taken place in an immediate fashion. There are myriad variables to consider, and in my experience (and in recorded history), insurers, DE organizations (clubs and businesses) and racing sanctioning bodies have not always moved in "lock step" with regard to adoption of new tech.

LuigiVampa

I'm assuming that DFU is an acronym meaning some kind of specification, but what exactly does DFU stand for?

winders

Mahler9th comes from the medical device world and I would guess "DFU" is an acronym from that world meaning "Detail Follow Up"....