bswift

Well this thread certainly heated up!

This is all good feedback, thank you.

Some of the regions I've run with recently had harness/HANS related drop downs integrated into the registration process, which is nice, but in the end safety mismatch situations still occurred due to last minute instructor assignment changes or non-driver checkouts not having a HANS.

That said I can and will definitely be more proactive and assertive about requesting changes.

Zhao

There is usually a good reason for rules changes.I could see it being largely because having one body flopping around next to one that is perfectly rigid is a safety concern. There are real world examples of where people died strapped in to a car but some guy flopping around actually caused their death. It is common for people to post on this forum with feelings on what is safer, without actually understanding that they're increasing risk. Just because something feels safer from a position of ignorance doesn't mean it is. PCA is one of the most ****, if not most ****, organizations for safety and rules, so if they require something, it's probably vetted pretty heavily on the safety angle.

I assume the rule also is because of people like 2024cayman who couldn't care less about 'the help' sitting next to him and stories like mine of what kind of cars on the fringes show up. Someone at some point was probably like, you know what, zero tolerance starts now, I'm done dealing with entitled idiots thinking they 'pay my wages' when I'm a volunteer organizer.



This is also quite literally a problem that would never be a problem either where I am. Almost no car shows up to a HPDE needing an instructor with a harness and guy running a hans. That'd be extremely rare and somewhat weird, but virtually every instructor I know road races so we all have HANS. I rarely bring mine, but I know a lot of others do because they're often using them in their own car. I can't speak for that region on who actually instructs but I'd be surprised if there wasn't someone else with a HANS to swap with.

This is also a PCA event. Green is so slow from experience and pace, that I've yet to see an off in green group. I'm not seeing anyone pushing braking zones, or maximum attacking a corner, or anywhere near the edge. Yellow is also pretty slow. I feel like most people are still miles away from the edge in yellow and no one is pushing anywhere that hard. The risk of an incident should be extremely low. As long as the student is listening to hte instructor and the instructor is in control it should be almost non-existent. That's my experience from instructing at 2 different PCA chapters anyway.

P.S. For the record I don't have a problem riding without a hans next to someone that does. But you gotta follow the rules of the organization that runs it. It is most likely an insurance sign off requirement so arguing about it isn't going to get anywhere. There is also a shortage of qualified instructors and only an idiot thinks your average instructor does it for the free track time and owes the student. I use probably 10% of my free track time.

quickboxster

I have a hybrid hans on my short list of stuff to buy, this thread tells me there's not a lot of point in buying one at this time, because I don't think I've seen more than 5 drivers total at the track with a hans. Not one of my instructors or the others I've seen or spoken with seem to have a hans anywhere at hand and I've been actively looking to see who's wearing them at the last few days. Since I can't wear a hans with an instructor that doesn't have one, that's a thou that'd just sit in the pits unless I'm soloing.

Olemiss540

100% not true. Buy the hybrid and promise you they will allow you to use it without issue. If an instructor has a problem, talk to the chief instructor.

38D

This may have been true in the 90s, but sure is not true now. Cars nowadays are so fast it is very easy to get in real trouble even in a lower group. Even a green student in a 992 GT3 is going to be going 130mph down the straight at a bigger track like the Glen or Road America. You make a smaller mistake at that speed and it has consequences. Even with the nannies.

Olemiss540

What rule are you talking about?

I dont believe there is any rule that says if your instructor chooses to not wear a hans and instead wear a 3 point, the student HAS to do the same but that seems to be what you are implying.

bswift

Student with harnesses is definitely an outlier, but I would have expected more instructors to have issues with giving demo rides to students without HANS which is essentially the same situation. That tells me that either no one in this thread has had such an experience, or they did the same as I have done and ran with the 3-points.

I've seen offs in both beginner and intermediate groups across multiple regions. There was a situation at an event recently where a solo driver was so slow, they were basically parked on line over the crest of a blind corner and very nearly caused a multi-car accident. Slow and/or instructed does not always mean safe.

My interpretation of the rules would suggest that a Simpson Hybrid with the stock 3-point belts would be acceptable, as you are not using harnesses you only have to provide equal restraints. The issues come into play when harnesses are added as that's when a HANS becomes mandatory. I did see instructors with the Simpson Hybrid jumping into student cars with 3 points and no Hybrid at my last event, but YMMV.

This^^

The rule is the reason this thread exists. Equal Restraints (10f) and Harness Systems (10g) from the PCA HPDE minimum standards: https://mediaassets.pca.org/docs/for...ttee-final.pdf

Both occupants of the vehicle must have and use the same type of restraint system. If harnesses are installed and used by either occupant, a HANS device is required. No HANS for one occupant means no harnesses can be used for either occupant.

2024CaymanS

so here we are comprising safety again on this thread. Sir please buy the hybrid. Because when something happens you’ll wish you had it. Your instructor doesn’t need a hybrid with you so long as you have three point belts on both seats. Worry about your safety first. Because when things are in the past we always look back and think oh maybe I should have had a hybrid. Things can go South fast on a track. And remember, it’s not about us driving, but the other macho men drivers around us.

2024CaymanS

omg. Just drop it. If you’re an instructor you should quit.
who are you to tell me what safety measures I take. You’re just an instructor. You don’t have any relationship with me. My family wants me home…in one piece. If I have a six point harness in both seats and I’m in mine with Hans and you don’t want to wear it. Your fault and find me someone who will. If I have three point belts on both seats and I wear a hybrid Hans and you don’t well obviously your dumb and haven’t really seen on track issues. I’ve seen enough YouTube videos to justify my safety. Just go on your way. You’re still not getting OP view. He had everything set but his instructor didn’t. Get with the program. The rules were clearly stated…in this thread.

Zhao

That seems to be exactly what this thread is about and how the rules posted read. Click the link on the first page and it says equal equipment must be worn (not offered). I think OP should have clarified better if he had equal harnesses, active or expired, and bucket seats for his passenger because I originally thought he didn't offer equal equipment, and am still not sure if he did or not. People seemed to answer that question for OP but OP never did that I can see.

OP: Still not sure why there wasn't an instructor swap as there are always instructors running hans where I am. Seems weird that there was no instructor available with a hans, like is this an area that has zero road racing? or are they so short on instructors that they're just pulling from newish hpde guys to instruct?

Buy the hans. I put an open wheel car into a cement pit wall and credit the hans with feeling like a million bucks when I came out of that accident with no neck injuries. I was also rear ended on track on track sitting in my disabled car by some old guy that target fixated on my rear bumper, and again, no problems. That's only a sample of 2 so not great data, but I'm in the collision industry and plenty of people have permanent issues for far more minor accidents than both those. The only downside to the hans is you may run over someone in the pits if you have to backup since you have absolute crap visibility when doing anything but going forward.

LuigiVampa

You just never know what is going to set off the RL masses!

ExMB

SmH about where this thread is going. Seems to me that some are so entitled that they are not willing to accept reality and/or willing to adapt; all within the rules of whatever organization they run with of course.

steveP911

I wonder why instructors don’t all have Simpson Hybrids to allow them to be safer in three point belt cars and six point harness cars. Isn’t that the simplest approach? Am I missing something or does that not avoid this situation?

2024CaymanS

From this thread I have gathered that 1) some instructors are legit and won’t compromise safety and they have it or a true Hans for harness systems 2) others don’t care and their egos are too big to understand that anything can happen on a track even with a newb.

Cuda911

I got our local PCA board to approve me buying 10 HANS and helmet pairs in multiple sizes, for just such a situation. Usually it is the student that needs to borrow a HANS.