mgordon18

Wow. That's obviously two experienced dudes, right there. As a spot on the track that the line crosses over from the left side of the track to the right, it seems to be an extremely dangerous place to give a point-by. In this case gbuff (in the Mini) seems to be going off line to let Bill by. They can pull it off in this spot because these guys know what they're doing and can trust each other to both give and take the pass responsibly and predictably.

Very cool to see.

De Jeeper

Remeber this is a novice group. We had 4 point by sections and i used them all. I am 6'-4" with long arms. The guys behind me saw me pointing . I could not point any sooner as its manual and i need that arm to hold the wheel while shifting after the apex. I needed to make sure i was good before i could give the pass.

Again my instructor was pleased enough with my awareness and skill to let me go solo after 5 sessions on a new to me track. I didnt feel like i was an issue in the track and the majority if the cars in my group had no issue timing their passing.

its one of those things that need to be taught both from the stand point of the slow and fast car because as soon as u move up a group u will no longer be the big dog. kinda like graduating high school .

dgrobs

That's my point.
Get him by sooner.
Get him by while you're still on the straight.
Holding the wheel to shift at APEX (which you should not be doing yet btw regardless-->shifting in a corner), should not be a factor if you got him by BEFORE turn in.
It's ok to lift to get a faster car by, especially before coming into that part of Mid-O where you know you won't be able to point him by for a while.
If you got him by before turn in off the back straight, he would not have been on your bumper for the next 6 corners.
It's up to you when you want to get him by, You're the lead car. You're in control of the point and pass, not him.
In the case you cited, getting him by BEFORE you made that right hander would have negated the issue before it even started.
I lift all the time to get faster cars by in time for a corner. This is DE, not racing.
You, the lead car, is in charge of the point by. Again, it's gonna be your call, not his. You are the lead car.
You saw what resulted from you not getting him by before that corner.
He rode your bumper and had you driving your mirrors though all those corners that followed.
As you gain experience, your situational awareness will increase dramatically, and you will realize that getting him by by lifting and pointing would have yielded a better result in your case you cited.
It's all about seat time. Go get some...........and enjoy.

DTMiller

Someone say passing in the esses?

TXE36

The other useful function of the mirror tap is to get the lead driver to stop looking at his mirrors, as there really isn't any need any more and it is just a distraction from this point until the passing zone. Tap the mirror, drive the car, and give the point.

Note that a lot of this passing advice is invalid if point-bys are not enforced. Open passing is a different kettle of fish. Passing without a point in a point-by session is not cool.

mgordon18

Tapping the mirror is interesting. I think it might be easily confused with a half-hearted point-by and, if the faster car doesn't know you're doing it, can cause trouble. In theory, though, I love the idea of an "I see you there and chill out" indicator. If the mirror tap is explained in the drivers' meeting, then I think it would be a great addition to our driver communication methods.

MattUF

+1 to this. There's no way in hell I'm riding someone's bumper at a DE, especially in a mixed group that has intermediates. There's no telling if someone will brake 50 feet before you normally would, causing you to have to emergency brake/go off line to avoid contact. Personally, I'll initially pull up near someone, putting ~half my car staggered out to the driver's side so I'm "filling" their mirror for a corner or two, then I'll ease back until the next passing zone.

If this was during a PCA HPDE, it sounds like the guy was being too aggressive. Every PCA beginner/intermediate driver's meeting I've attended stresses it's not a race, so personally I wouldn't care about interfering with someone's lap time. Sure, it's not ideal when I'm piecing together a good lap and get caught behind someone, but I also realize I'm not out qualifying for the USGP and it's just part of life in DE.

I started doing DEs in a '98 Boxster at Sebring, so I understand your plight all too well IMO there's a balance between seeing a car/cars a ways back in your rearview before a passing zone and anticipating they'll be up to you by the end of a passing zone/straight and adjusting your speed accordingly to allow them to pass in that zone, and making yourself a rolling roadblock going 60 mph down each straight to let cars half a lap behind catch up and pass.

TXE36

You will get better at this with practice and as you move up the run groups you will also get to know the other drivers better and there will be ones you trust more than others. With another driver your really trust, and one that trusts you, you can pull of some passes that seem impossible. This is something that happened to me on an outlap getting onto a hot MSRH with another driver that I know well and he knows me. This was a Chin event, pass anywhere with a point.

Car was stone cold, so the start was slow, pointed the Mustang who came out behind me by immediately. Then note the closing rate of the "smurf" going into next right-hander, just before Diamond's Edge CCW at MSRH:


With cooperation, it is quite possible for cars/drivers with quite different performance capabilities to share the track.

I can also say that "smurf" made the most wonderful sounds :-). High performance machine with a very talented driver.

jscott82

Without video its impossible to tell if your point-by was late or not, so Ill assume it was spot on. And this stuff is normal in first solo group, don't sweat it.

Other angle for this thread is the quote above. 1) Good on you for seeing him coming and giving room. You will find in your career that "**** happens", and you need to be prepared. Either by the car behind over driving or by mechanical failures. In white group you will see PLENTY of overdriving, it comes with the territory.

Years ago I was dicing it up with a guy behind, we were neck and neck trading the lead back and forth. Going into a fast left hander, I could see something wasn't quite right in my rear view, so I held my turn-in for just a sec to see. And sure enough, he passed on my left fully locked up as he spun off into the gravel trap.

TXE36

That is an example of great flagging. I've been at Chin events at COTA with F1, NASCAR, and all sorts of other high end hardware and talented drivers lurking out there. In a novice run group, it is generally sufficient to check one's six at the entry to a passing zone. In the higher run groups, you have to be checking constantly.

For the groups I run with in TX, including the local PCA regions, the point-by must be done only by the driver and must be outside the car. Valid point bys are discussed in the driver's meeting and the mirror tap is brought up during classroom and newbie group in-car instruction. The only variation I've seen is with groups like Chin, where they may allow a turn signal to be used in some cars, but again, not inside the car and it is discussed beforehand in the driver's meeting.

One other thing, following closely on the track isn't "tailgating", it's "communicating".

De Jeeper

That's my point.
Get him by sooner.
Get him by while you're still on the straight..

It was 1st lap of the session i let 4 cars by in the back straight. I cant stop the car and wave everyone by. He was no where near me at the first turn of the Esses. I can get to 115mph on the back straight and start braking at the 450' mark. I assume he comes in at 140mph and brakes at the 250' mark. I have been behind a gt4 in the Esess and have watched them stay in the middle of the track while im on the aprons. They r gonna catch me and i understand what u r saying but sometimes its just not possible.

It's ok to lift to get a faster car by, especially before coming into that part of Mid-O where you know you won't be able to point him by for a while.

Did this all day in the back straight and other passing zones.


I lift all the time to get faster cars by in time for a corner. This is DE, not racing.

Again did this all day as i like the clear track in front and behind.

You, the lead car, is in charge of the point by. Again, it's gonna be your call, not his. You are the lead car.
You saw what resulted from you not getting him by before that corner.

Exactly. The pass could not have been made sooner and he should have adjusted. I drove my line and pointed as soon as the next zone was entered, after he almost caused an accident by driving under me.
.
It's all about seat time. Go get some...........and enjoy.

oh and i did, i had a great 2 days.

certz

Take all of this with a grain of salt as there is at least one person on this thread providing worldly advice that does not have much more experience than you. You are going to meet all types on the track, some are going to ride your *** and dive bomb you, some are going to give you space and wait, and then there will be all the others in between. Sounds like you did some heads up driving for someone that was impatient - keep it up, it will likely not be the last time. Also, if your expectation is that the next run group higher will be better, then go ahead and make an adjustment now to that thinking. I can assure you that at all levels there will be people that make some dangerous choices when passing - some work out, some don't...

mgordon18

This is me, BTW. I'm in white, too. But I happen to be very good at being passed.

certz

And as I said, take all of this with a grain of salt, even my comments.

gbuff

Yes, Mike, lotta track years between the two of us. That is actually one of my favorite places to point people by, and I'm really grateful Bill actually took the pass! Many drivers get queasy about going side-by-side up there (and hang me out to dry) but my car is small and there's room aplenty. I usually hug the white line on track left all the way up but on this occasion I was off of it a little bit, but we made it work.

OP, see all the fun you have to look forward to?!