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This is crazy, even for Rennlist..
PCA proposes a DE rule which will keep DE participants, for the one's that chose to modify their cars with parts of a safety SYSTEM, that will cause them to finish this aspect of their safety system so it isn't the direct cause of their death. You put in race seats, harnesses, and a roll/harness bar/cage to attach the harnesses to and lock your torso in place and with all we have learned in the past decade+ it's not clear you need a HANs of some type? The egress question is valid, but answered by many. Anyone with a restraint system should have practiced egress with eyes closed and breath held 100 times (out of both sides of the car if possible) if they are serious about safety on track. And if not serious, why the hell did they install all the safety devices? Looks?
The egress question is valid, but answered by many. Anyone with a restraint system should have practiced egress with eyes closed and breath held 100 times (out of both sides of the car if possible) if they are serious about safety on track. And if not serious, why the hell did they install all the safety devices? Looks?
Not looks. Because a half cage, and harnesses are better than 3 point belts. Are you ready for HANS? Maybe not. It's a DE car.
Have you practiced egress? Are you wearing a fire suit? These are important questions. If they weren't serious (if I wasn't) we wouldn't install a half cage and harnesses to begin with. Give us a little credit?
It's sort of sad you'd talk about "looks" in this context. Maybe you're right and there are folks that just do it for looks. Can we ignore them for a bit? There are also folks who are building the best safety system they can without building a full blown track car. They're driving in DEs. Is there anyplace left we can do that?
Not looks. Because a half cage, and harnesses are better than 3 point belts. Are you ready for HANS? Maybe not. It's a DE car.
Have you practiced egress? Are you wearing a fire suit? These are important questions. If they weren't serious (if I wasn't) we wouldn't install a half cage and harnesses to begin with. Give us a little credit?
It's sort of sad you'd talk about "looks" in this context. Maybe you're right and there are folks that just do it for looks. Can we ignore them for a bit? There are also folks who are building the best safety system they can without building a full blown track car. They're driving in DEs. Is there anyplace left we can do that?
Otto, what you seem to fail to grasp is that some people NEED to be required to meet a safety standard and they simply won't do it on their own. It is a fact that locking yourself in a seat with harnesses can be the direct cause of certain types of fatal skull fractures in a collision, that is not up for debate. When DE's started many years ago a major car modification was putting numbers on the doors. Since then people have gone the way of adding race modifications and along the way have done it very badly (think of 3-4 foot lenghts of belt from the shoulders to a haphazard bolt drilled into the rear shelf for one common example). If you choose to install seats/harnesses/bar in a car and not using a HANs you are skipping a major part of that safety system and are in fact adding a new risk factor.
Originally Posted by Otto Mechanic
Not looks. Because a half cage, and harnesses are better than 3 point belts. Are you ready for HANS? Maybe not. It's a DE car.
You are mistaken, as explained above (and in my last statement) as clearly as I can, and in my opinion you answered the "Are you Ready for a HANs" if seats and harnesses were installed.
Originally Posted by Otto Mechanic
Have you practiced egress? Are you wearing a fire suit?
Egress practiced countless times, a couple under duress in a Race and DE incidents. A fire suit has nothing to do with the question at hand, but the answer is yes as it is a requirement of PCA Club Racing. I would wear it either way, my choice.
Originally Posted by Otto Mechanic
If they weren't serious (if I wasn't) we wouldn't install a half cage and harnesses to begin with. Give us a little credit?
You appear to be an intelligent person, and you have already made the choice to use a HANs as part of your safety system, don't dismiss the possible ignorance of the general public. I've seen some absolutely horrendous "safety" modification in cars that boggle the mind.
Originally Posted by Otto Mechanic
It's sort of sad you'd talk about "looks" in this context. Maybe you're right and there are folks that just do it for looks. Can we ignore them for a bit? There are also folks who are building the best safety system they can without building a full blown track car. They're driving in DEs. Is there anyplace left we can do that?
First of all don't be sad... Again, having part of a safety system is not better than leaving a stock system in place and in some cases inherently more dangerous. How about an ejection seat in those experimental jets with no chute?
Just to clarify since it would seem there are humor impaired parties participating, I hate to explain jokes but I'll give it one more attempt. I hope you can find it in your heart to see the humor expressed?
PS: To answer your earlier question; yes, I'm well past 21. My son is quite a bit older than that. Why is my age something you're concerned about? So far you've asked if I was over the age of majority, drunk (twice) and a troll?
I can't see how any of that relates to the discussion. This is openly a discussion of policy. We will have reasoned disagreements on policy and that's the entire purpose of public discussion among the general club membership. I've tried to express my opinions in an open and honest way and I've made an attempt to engage you in that conversation respectfully. When you've made disrespectful comments, I've laughed them off and replied with humor. That's really the best I can do. I actually wrote you a public apology when it became obvious you were hostile and perhaps hadn't understood the humor.
Making an attempt to drive the page count higher with deliberate antagonism isn't really productive; it buries the debate in noise. Please respect the opinions of other members. They will, in turn, respect yours.
Sincerely,
You're the one who brought up age of majority blah blah blah
I can't see the part where bolt in cages are not allowed? In the text you've cited I see:
"The mounting area of bolt‐in roll cage must be backed by a plate of a size equal to that of the upper mounting plate with a minimum thickness of 3/16”."
I've been reading this section carefully over the past year and this didn't leave me the understanding bolt in cages were verboten. Is there something I've missed?
Regardless, the rule you're quoting, unless I miss my guess, only applies to SP class cars. There's nothing there that says a half cage and harness bar can't be mounted in a car used for DE/HPDE (is there a difference?). So folks with half cages and harness bars (and harnesses of course) will now be required to use a HANS in DE events. That's new.
Why is that significant? Well, first off the driver doesn't have to wear a firesuit, gloves, nomex underwear, nomex shoes and all the other stuff necessary to extend the time an occupant has for emergency egress from a burning car. There's no requirement for fire suppression. DE cars don't need to be equipped with electrical pulls (inside and out). This means that the driver is taking on the additional risk of getting out of a car with a very awkward HANS strapped to their head and no equipment to improve their chance of surviving the extended egress time created by it.
I can't see a conflict here for instructors in student cars. As I read the existing regulations, safety equipment installed for the driver must be equivalent for the passenger. This seems to clearly mandate that if the driver has installed HALO seats and harnesses, the passenger seat must be equivalently equipped.
If the driver is using a harness without a HANS, that doesn't appear to prohibit the use of a HANS device by the instructor in either seat since the left seat should also offer the same equipment. Similarly, the instructor is allowed to wear a fire suit. Gloves. All the other personal safety equipment the instructor finds appropriate.
having part of a safety system is not better than leaving a stock system in place and in some cases inherently more dangerous.
I thought I'd already made my opinion on that subject clear Gary? (you can call me Scott BTW). As I've tried to express many times now, the issue is not HANS. It's HANS minus fire suits, fire suppression systems and egress training. A HANS, all by itself is beneficial in a specific use case, but it becomes a liability unless other safety systems are used with it.
I really am getting weary of going over this; requiring a HANS without all the things that go with it is a very bad idea.
Not looks. Because a half cage, and harnesses are better than 3 point belts. Are you ready for HANS? Maybe not. It's a DE car.
Have you practiced egress? Are you wearing a fire suit? These are important questions. If they weren't serious (if I wasn't) we wouldn't install a half cage and harnesses to begin with. Give us a little credit?
It's sort of sad you'd talk about "looks" in this context. Maybe you're right and there are folks that just do it for looks. Can we ignore them for a bit? There are also folks who are building the best safety system they can without building a full blown track car. They're driving in DEs. Is there anyplace left we can do that?
I thought I'd already made my opinion on that subject clear Gary? (you can call me Scott BTW). As I've tried to express many times now, the issue is not HANS. It's HANS minus fire suits, fire suppression systems and egress training. A HANS, all by itself is beneficial in a specific use case, but it becomes a liability unless other safety systems are used with it.
I really am getting weary of going over this; requiring a HANS without all the things that go with it is a very bad idea.
I thought I'd already made my opinion on that subject clear Gary? (you can call me Scott BTW). As I've tried to express many times now, the issue is not HANS. It's HANS minus fire suits, fire suppression systems and egress training. A HANS, all by itself is beneficial in a specific use case, but it becomes a liability unless other safety systems are used with it.
I really am getting weary of going over this; requiring a HANS without all the things that go with it is a very bad idea.
Sincerely,
Wow. You do understand that overall driver safety equipment and how a HANs works with harnesses/seats/bar/helmet as a driver retention system are two completely separate subjects don't you Scott? HANs device and fire suit have absolutely nothing to do with each other, there is no interaction between them. Either do fire rated socks/shoes/gloves/balacava, and underwear. I don't have a cat, but it appears that it's time for cat pictures after all.
12-12-2018, 07:10 AM
