NEW PCA Best Practices for DE (Rant!)
#316
This is crazy, even for Rennlist..
PCA proposes a DE rule which will keep DE participants, for the one's that chose to modify their cars with parts of a safety SYSTEM, that will cause them to finish this aspect of their safety system so it isn't the direct cause of their death. You put in race seats, harnesses, and a roll/harness bar/cage to attach the harnesses to and lock your torso in place and with all we have learned in the past decade+ it's not clear you need a HANs of some type? The egress question is valid, but answered by many. Anyone with a restraint system should have practiced egress with eyes closed and breath held 100 times (out of both sides of the car if possible) if they are serious about safety on track. And if not serious, why the hell did they install all the safety devices? Looks?
PCA proposes a DE rule which will keep DE participants, for the one's that chose to modify their cars with parts of a safety SYSTEM, that will cause them to finish this aspect of their safety system so it isn't the direct cause of their death. You put in race seats, harnesses, and a roll/harness bar/cage to attach the harnesses to and lock your torso in place and with all we have learned in the past decade+ it's not clear you need a HANs of some type? The egress question is valid, but answered by many. Anyone with a restraint system should have practiced egress with eyes closed and breath held 100 times (out of both sides of the car if possible) if they are serious about safety on track. And if not serious, why the hell did they install all the safety devices? Looks?
Last edited by Gary R.; 12-12-2018 at 08:24 AM.
#317
The egress question is valid, but answered by many. Anyone with a restraint system should have practiced egress with eyes closed and breath held 100 times (out of both sides of the car if possible) if they are serious about safety on track. And if not serious, why the hell did they install all the safety devices? Looks?
Have you practiced egress? Are you wearing a fire suit? These are important questions. If they weren't serious (if I wasn't) we wouldn't install a half cage and harnesses to begin with. Give us a little credit?
It's sort of sad you'd talk about "looks" in this context. Maybe you're right and there are folks that just do it for looks. Can we ignore them for a bit? There are also folks who are building the best safety system they can without building a full blown track car. They're driving in DEs. Is there anyplace left we can do that?
#318
Not looks. Because a half cage, and harnesses are better than 3 point belts. Are you ready for HANS? Maybe not. It's a DE car.
Have you practiced egress? Are you wearing a fire suit? These are important questions. If they weren't serious (if I wasn't) we wouldn't install a half cage and harnesses to begin with. Give us a little credit?
It's sort of sad you'd talk about "looks" in this context. Maybe you're right and there are folks that just do it for looks. Can we ignore them for a bit? There are also folks who are building the best safety system they can without building a full blown track car. They're driving in DEs. Is there anyplace left we can do that?
Have you practiced egress? Are you wearing a fire suit? These are important questions. If they weren't serious (if I wasn't) we wouldn't install a half cage and harnesses to begin with. Give us a little credit?
It's sort of sad you'd talk about "looks" in this context. Maybe you're right and there are folks that just do it for looks. Can we ignore them for a bit? There are also folks who are building the best safety system they can without building a full blown track car. They're driving in DEs. Is there anyplace left we can do that?
Egress practiced countless times, a couple under duress in a Race and DE incidents. A fire suit has nothing to do with the question at hand, but the answer is yes as it is a requirement of PCA Club Racing. I would wear it either way, my choice.
It's sort of sad you'd talk about "looks" in this context. Maybe you're right and there are folks that just do it for looks. Can we ignore them for a bit? There are also folks who are building the best safety system they can without building a full blown track car. They're driving in DEs. Is there anyplace left we can do that?
Last edited by Gary R.; 12-12-2018 at 08:37 AM.
#319
Just to clarify since it would seem there are humor impaired parties participating, I hate to explain jokes but I'll give it one more attempt. I hope you can find it in your heart to see the humor expressed?
PS: To answer your earlier question; yes, I'm well past 21. My son is quite a bit older than that. Why is my age something you're concerned about? So far you've asked if I was over the age of majority, drunk (twice) and a troll?
I can't see how any of that relates to the discussion. This is openly a discussion of policy. We will have reasoned disagreements on policy and that's the entire purpose of public discussion among the general club membership. I've tried to express my opinions in an open and honest way and I've made an attempt to engage you in that conversation respectfully. When you've made disrespectful comments, I've laughed them off and replied with humor. That's really the best I can do. I actually wrote you a public apology when it became obvious you were hostile and perhaps hadn't understood the humor.
Making an attempt to drive the page count higher with deliberate antagonism isn't really productive; it buries the debate in noise. Please respect the opinions of other members. They will, in turn, respect yours.
Sincerely,
PS: To answer your earlier question; yes, I'm well past 21. My son is quite a bit older than that. Why is my age something you're concerned about? So far you've asked if I was over the age of majority, drunk (twice) and a troll?
I can't see how any of that relates to the discussion. This is openly a discussion of policy. We will have reasoned disagreements on policy and that's the entire purpose of public discussion among the general club membership. I've tried to express my opinions in an open and honest way and I've made an attempt to engage you in that conversation respectfully. When you've made disrespectful comments, I've laughed them off and replied with humor. That's really the best I can do. I actually wrote you a public apology when it became obvious you were hostile and perhaps hadn't understood the humor.
Making an attempt to drive the page count higher with deliberate antagonism isn't really productive; it buries the debate in noise. Please respect the opinions of other members. They will, in turn, respect yours.
Sincerely,
..
#320
I can't see the part where bolt in cages are not allowed? In the text you've cited I see:
"The mounting area of bolt‐in roll cage must be backed by a plate of a size equal to that of the upper mounting plate with a minimum thickness of 3/16”."
I've been reading this section carefully over the past year and this didn't leave me the understanding bolt in cages were verboten. Is there something I've missed?
Regardless, the rule you're quoting, unless I miss my guess, only applies to SP class cars. There's nothing there that says a half cage and harness bar can't be mounted in a car used for DE/HPDE (is there a difference?). So folks with half cages and harness bars (and harnesses of course) will now be required to use a HANS in DE events. That's new.
Why is that significant? Well, first off the driver doesn't have to wear a firesuit, gloves, nomex underwear, nomex shoes and all the other stuff necessary to extend the time an occupant has for emergency egress from a burning car. There's no requirement for fire suppression. DE cars don't need to be equipped with electrical pulls (inside and out). This means that the driver is taking on the additional risk of getting out of a car with a very awkward HANS strapped to their head and no equipment to improve their chance of surviving the extended egress time created by it.
Maybe that will focus the debate a bit?
"The mounting area of bolt‐in roll cage must be backed by a plate of a size equal to that of the upper mounting plate with a minimum thickness of 3/16”."
I've been reading this section carefully over the past year and this didn't leave me the understanding bolt in cages were verboten. Is there something I've missed?
Regardless, the rule you're quoting, unless I miss my guess, only applies to SP class cars. There's nothing there that says a half cage and harness bar can't be mounted in a car used for DE/HPDE (is there a difference?). So folks with half cages and harness bars (and harnesses of course) will now be required to use a HANS in DE events. That's new.
Why is that significant? Well, first off the driver doesn't have to wear a firesuit, gloves, nomex underwear, nomex shoes and all the other stuff necessary to extend the time an occupant has for emergency egress from a burning car. There's no requirement for fire suppression. DE cars don't need to be equipped with electrical pulls (inside and out). This means that the driver is taking on the additional risk of getting out of a car with a very awkward HANS strapped to their head and no equipment to improve their chance of surviving the extended egress time created by it.
Maybe that will focus the debate a bit?
..
#321
Or whatever we choose to call it.
I can't see a conflict here for instructors in student cars. As I read the existing regulations, safety equipment installed for the driver must be equivalent for the passenger. This seems to clearly mandate that if the driver has installed HALO seats and harnesses, the passenger seat must be equivalently equipped.
If the driver is using a harness without a HANS, that doesn't appear to prohibit the use of a HANS device by the instructor in either seat since the left seat should also offer the same equipment. Similarly, the instructor is allowed to wear a fire suit. Gloves. All the other personal safety equipment the instructor finds appropriate.
What have I missed?
I can't see a conflict here for instructors in student cars. As I read the existing regulations, safety equipment installed for the driver must be equivalent for the passenger. This seems to clearly mandate that if the driver has installed HALO seats and harnesses, the passenger seat must be equivalently equipped.
If the driver is using a harness without a HANS, that doesn't appear to prohibit the use of a HANS device by the instructor in either seat since the left seat should also offer the same equipment. Similarly, the instructor is allowed to wear a fire suit. Gloves. All the other personal safety equipment the instructor finds appropriate.
What have I missed?
#322
I really am getting weary of going over this; requiring a HANS without all the things that go with it is a very bad idea.
Sincerely,
#323
Not looks. Because a half cage, and harnesses are better than 3 point belts. Are you ready for HANS? Maybe not. It's a DE car.
Have you practiced egress? Are you wearing a fire suit? These are important questions. If they weren't serious (if I wasn't) we wouldn't install a half cage and harnesses to begin with. Give us a little credit?
It's sort of sad you'd talk about "looks" in this context. Maybe you're right and there are folks that just do it for looks. Can we ignore them for a bit? There are also folks who are building the best safety system they can without building a full blown track car. They're driving in DEs. Is there anyplace left we can do that?
Have you practiced egress? Are you wearing a fire suit? These are important questions. If they weren't serious (if I wasn't) we wouldn't install a half cage and harnesses to begin with. Give us a little credit?
It's sort of sad you'd talk about "looks" in this context. Maybe you're right and there are folks that just do it for looks. Can we ignore them for a bit? There are also folks who are building the best safety system they can without building a full blown track car. They're driving in DEs. Is there anyplace left we can do that?
..
#324
I thought I'd already made my opinion on that subject clear Gary? (you can call me Scott BTW). As I've tried to express many times now, the issue is not HANS. It's HANS minus fire suits, fire suppression systems and egress training. A HANS, all by itself is beneficial in a specific use case, but it becomes a liability unless other safety systems are used with it.
I really am getting weary of going over this; requiring a HANS without all the things that go with it is a very bad idea.
Sincerely,
I really am getting weary of going over this; requiring a HANS without all the things that go with it is a very bad idea.
Sincerely,
..
#325
I thought I'd already made my opinion on that subject clear Gary? (you can call me Scott BTW). As I've tried to express many times now, the issue is not HANS. It's HANS minus fire suits, fire suppression systems and egress training. A HANS, all by itself is beneficial in a specific use case, but it becomes a liability unless other safety systems are used with it.
I really am getting weary of going over this; requiring a HANS without all the things that go with it is a very bad idea.
Sincerely,
I really am getting weary of going over this; requiring a HANS without all the things that go with it is a very bad idea.
Sincerely,
#326
#329