Please show me stats on race incidents vs DE incidents.

Shark attacks happen as do lighting strikes.

Just trying to point out that racing 9-10th and DE 7-10th, no passing in corners, point bys, airbags and street cars is very very different.

Love to see facts. "I've seen many cars destoryed at DE" I call BS!

40 year PCA member,SCCA and POC licensed and hundreds of track days. Whats your resume. "many destroyed DE cars" show some stats from PCA DE please.

 

As a DE instructor where stewards repeatedly state this is not a race and drive 7-10ths this is not timed or a race I am pointing out the difference.

Racing incidents vs DE incidents are vastly different in number and injuries. Sad we cant get facts to support what is obvious to most.

Red run groups do run a little hotter.

 

I've been driving DE for 12 years and racing for 5 years. I've seen many cars severely damaged and destroyed in DEs. Mechanical failures, fluid on the track, cold tires, and running out of talent. I've seen all that happen.

Is it less than racing? Probably. But to also say everyone drives 7/10s in DE is just flat out wrong.

 

100% agree with this. I did 50 "DE Days-Including Open Track Club events and Advanced DE events" this season, and yes, I have seen my share of wrecks during these days. Thankfully. none of these wrecks have involved me or my car, but I am really not at the 10/10ths level quite yet as most of you folks are. 9/10ths at most and then my sense of self-preservation kicks in To say that wrecks don't happen in DE is incorrect. I have seen plenty of them, and usually in the advanced run groups, read" Red and Black".
Don't know how anyone can say that cars don't get damaged in DE type events. I see it all the time.
Agree 100% with Luigi here.

 

For all those mathematically challenged d please put a number to "many" destroyed at PCA DE events please..

This is a rant. Not personal. I just like facts not one time at band camp stories.

 

Jeopardy DE Happenings for $1000

Me
Michael
Steve
Emily
Charlie
Chris
Lee
Chris

Who are people who have been in an incident that resulted in a car being totaled at a DE that I can think of off the top of my head?

 

It depends on the event organizer and the track. At a PCA event at a track on the east coast, from VIR northward, it would not be unusual to see 2-3 wrecked cars at a DE which is 2-3 days and which has 100-150 participants. Sometimes, the number of wrecked cars is less than that range, but sometimes it's more. Wrecks can and do happen in all run groups. If you go to DEs, you can see these numbers for yourself, you don't need to take the word of anyone on the internet.

Also, your impression that there's no passing in corners at DEs shows that you have very limited DE experience.

 

Done hundreds and hundreds of track days in 22 years and was once a victim of fluid on track, as was the car behind me that ended up sliding into me with both cars totaled. This was at a PCA DE.

Moral: ANYTHING can happen to ANYBODY at ANY TIME if you're on a racetrack, plain and simple. Not for nothing is it said that "There are two groups of drivers: those that have hit the wall and those that will".

And as for driving 7/10ths, my Mini would yell at me if I tried such a thing

Gary

 

PCA Zone 8 West coast DE, even in Red run groups never allow passing in corners; PERIOD.

Point by, with acknowledgment also required in RED.

Not being argumentative just trying to point out, at least here in Zone 8 DE rules are very clear. May be its why we have fewer incidents than what you just pointed out.

Words like destroy and many have meaning.

Maybe our track insurance provider can post up some facts on DE vs HPDE vs Race in PCA incidents.

 

You don't have PCA "expanded passing" in the upper run groups that let you pass anywhere on the track with a point? Here in the NE most all the PCA regions that I drive with do this.

Gary

 

You are absolutely correct. There are far more incidents, especially with C2C contact, in racing. At DE's there are typically between 1 and 3 incidents per event and the percentage of them that are C2C is nearly 0. I would guess there are that many incidents of contact, reported or otherwise incidental, per race. Sometimes unfortunately DE incidents can be quite serious.

I feel the main goal is to keep students and their instructors as safe as possible while they are participating. The goals as I see them for any of the instructed groups is to have them completely incident free. We certainly want all of the groups to be completely incident free as well.

Regarding pace from what I have experienced Red Run group pace in DE's is dependent on traffic the same as in racing. When clear track is found lap times that I see are comparable which makes sense to me because often times those driver's that are going quick at DE's are also involved in racing and are driving their racing cars. I am not sure where the notion comes from that somehow DE's are slower? I know that sometimes, depending on the class they are in, the racing cars in attendance are some of the very slowest cars on track at our events. Because the driver's aren't used to giving point by's, even during extended passing sessions, you can go an entire lap being stuck behind them which shows me their awareness isn't quite geared towards DE participation.

Other than the fact that C2C is less prevalent I believe in the higher run groups where a driver is really pushing it's important to have proper safety equipment in the off chance something does happen. One of my friends, not happy with safety equipment in his street car and having sold his GT3 Cup, purchased the #22 Ligier LMP3 car from United Autosports just for HPDE participation. A bit overkill for sure but safety is important to him. I am looking forward to seeing it at Watkins Glen this coming season.

I happen to really appreciate the direction PCA is going. I liked the clarification John made letting me know I can get out of my car and into a students car without removing my HNR when my student does not have one driving his 3 pt belt street car. I like the fact that they are mandating the use of an HNR when a car is equipped with harnesses. Last piece for me is perfect clarity on equal for driver and passenger. Is it same seats, same harnesses down to the manufacturer and exp dates, same harness configuration on both sides etc?

 

Maybe you guys are slow and conservative. That's fine, but here on the east coast we like to go fast and it's a rare event where there's no passing in corners in the upper run groups.

 

The answer to that is no. Seats and harnesses do not have to be exactly of the same brand and expiration date. If the seats and harness meet the requirements of the minimum standards, in date belts and seats with the proper routing pass throughs then by the minimum standards they are acceptable. However, you must remember the Regions may impose rules that are more strict than what is in the DE Minimum Standards. So it is important to check with the regions you are planning on running with. Also your instructor may decline to ride with you if they do not feel comfortable with the safety equipment you have in your car or how it is installed.

A good way to look at equal restraints is, if this was another persons car, would you be comfortable riding in the right seat? In other words, don't cheap out on the equipment your instructor will be using. He or she wants to go home to their family at the end of the day just like you.

Aaron

 

Yes you are being argumentative; at least you come across that way. Just because your experience with your region is a certain way doesn't mean you can unilaterally make statements about other regions.

 

I've seen many cars destroyed at DE's. heck I was in one that did 30k of damage and needed a tilt-bed ride home..
For me the issue is the speed late model cars run, so a H&N requirement makes sense.

fwiw, my 71 911 never had abs or airbags... I have 2 race seats and 6pt harnesses. (non-Hans)
not everyone at the DE runs a late model car.