That may be more productive!

 

Probably not supposed to do this, but it from "The Science of Motorsport" by David P. Ferguson, page 93. Photo from Dr Terry Trammel.

 

The PCA website has not been updated yet. Here is the wording from the new Standard,

"Therefore, in order to have a COMPLETE SYSTEM, a properly padded roll bar or roll cage is recommended, and an approved head and neck restraint device is required. A head and neck restraint device certified as meeting the standards of either SFI 38.1 or FIA 8858 or its successor is required. The use of such a harness system without roll protection and a head and neck restraint device may result in an unsafe environment and is not a COMPLETE SYSTEM. Roll bars or cages and their installation must meet PCA Club Racing Standards."

 

What do the PCA Club Racing Standards say about bolt-in roll bars ("half cages")? If a roll bar doesn't fully meet those Standards, is the roll bar considered to be worse than having no roll bar, and would the car not be allowed to run in PCA DEs, and would the roll bar need to be removed for the car to run in DEs (which could also mean no harness and HNR being used)? Need to be very careful here that rules aren't created in a way that makes many people less safe overall. Also need to consider the practicalities of using dual-purpose street cars on the track versus race cars that can't be used on the street.

 

Good point:

APPENDIX A ‐ ROLL CAGE SPECIFICATIONS Roll Cages: The roll cage must be securely mounted with the mounting plates at the bottom of the hoops mounted directly to the floor and/or longitudinal members of the unibody and make metal to metal contact. Any padding, carpet, upholstery, etc. must be removed to satisfy this requirement. The mounting area of bolt‐in roll cage must be backed by a plate of a size equal to that of the upper mounting plate with a minimum thickness of 3/16”. Bolts must be grade 5 or higher. The roll cage must be full cockpit width, except as originally supplied by the factory for open race cars and have two fore/aft tubing braces. The braces must be mounted as near to the top of the main hoop as possible at an included angle of at least 30 degrees. Also, the assembly must contain a diagonal (left to right side) tubing brace from one upper side of the main hoop to a floor or unibody lower frame mounting point of a bar member on the other side to obtain the strength benefits of triangulation. Roll cage bar tubing in the Stock/Prepared Classes must remain within the passenger compartment. The removal of the door glass to facilitate side impact protection is allowed. Carbon fiber roll cages are not allowed.

The roll cage must have a full width main hoop and a full‐width front hoop or two side halo hoops around the door opening connected by tubing across the top of the entire windshield. The tops of the hoops must be as close to the roof as possible in closed‐ top cars. In open‐top cars, the top of the main hoop must be at least 2” above the driver’s helmet, and the plane formed by the top of the main hoop and the top of the front hoop must be above the driver’s head in both closed and open top cars. The front (or side halo) and main hoops must go to the floor pan and be connected with each other with tubing as close to the roof line as possible. The cage must have at least one additional bar across the door opening below the window level on each side connecting the front and main hoops for side impact protection. Additional side impact protection (two bars or “NASCAR” style bars protruding into the door) is strongly recommended. An inspection hole 3/16" in diameter must be provided in a non‐critical area for verification of tube thickness. Any portion of the assembly which may come in contact with the driver’s helmet must be covered with high density foam at least 3/4" thick held securely in place with zip ties, electrical tape or duct tape. Foam must be equivalent to SFI 45.1 or FIA 8857 standards for hardness.

Factory Roll Cages as delivered in factory race cars are allowed. Roll cages sold or installed by Porsche in street cars are allowed in stock class cars if certified to meet FIA regulations.

 

Valid point. I doubt very much that the intention of PCA is to ban bolt-in cages and/or roll bars from DE events. Wouldn't make sense at all unless you felt a bolt in cage was less safe than no cage.

 

That policy might be the end of PCA DEs. The way I look at it, race cars need proper roll protection, and can provide it because they don't need to be driven on the street. For street cars driven on track, rolls bars are used largely to enable use of harnesses, and aren't really relied on to provide a big improvement in roll protection. Based on the DE crashes I know of which resulted in rolls, I've seen bolt-in roll bars sometimes provide some benefit, and I haven't run across a case where a roll bar failed and contributed to harm to an occupant. I view roll cages and roll bars as being different devices which are intended for different purposes.

 

 

If I use a HANS, can I still use the same oil or do I need to change to a different brand? What oil should I use in my 911?

(This should hit 40 pages without a problem)

 

Depends on your keychain.

 

This seems to exclude the use of bolt-in roll bars or half cages. Without those, the use of harnesses won't be allowed, therefore no H&N is needed. Problem solved.
Unless they actually wanted to make things safer.

 

Just to clarify since it would seem there are humor impaired parties participating, I hate to explain jokes but I'll give it one more attempt. I hope you can find it in your heart to see the humor expressed?
PS: To answer your earlier question; yes, I'm well past 21. My son is quite a bit older than that. Why is my age something you're concerned about? So far you've asked if I was over the age of majority, drunk (twice) and a troll?

I can't see how any of that relates to the discussion. This is openly a discussion of policy. We will have reasoned disagreements on policy and that's the entire purpose of public discussion among the general club membership. I've tried to express my opinions in an open and honest way and I've made an attempt to engage you in that conversation respectfully. When you've made disrespectful comments, I've laughed them off and replied with humor. That's really the best I can do. I actually wrote you a public apology when it became obvious you were hostile and perhaps hadn't understood the humor.

Making an attempt to drive the page count higher with deliberate antagonism isn't really productive; it buries the debate in noise. Please respect the opinions of other members. They will, in turn, respect yours.

Sincerely,

 

I can't see the part where bolt in cages are not allowed? In the text you've cited I see:

"The mounting area of bolt‐in roll cage must be backed by a plate of a size equal to that of the upper mounting plate with a minimum thickness of 3/16”."

I've been reading this section carefully over the past year and this didn't leave me the understanding bolt in cages were verboten. Is there something I've missed?

Regardless, the rule you're quoting, unless I miss my guess, only applies to SP class cars. There's nothing there that says a half cage and harness bar can't be mounted in a car used for DE/HPDE (is there a difference?). So folks with half cages and harness bars (and harnesses of course) will now be required to use a HANS in DE events. That's new.

Why is that significant? Well, first off the driver doesn't have to wear a firesuit, gloves, nomex underwear, nomex shoes and all the other stuff necessary to extend the time an occupant has for emergency egress from a burning car. There's no requirement for fire suppression. DE cars don't need to be equipped with electrical pulls (inside and out). This means that the driver is taking on the additional risk of getting out of a car with a very awkward HANS strapped to their head and no equipment to improve their chance of surviving the extended egress time created by it.

Maybe that will focus the debate a bit?

 

Or whatever we choose to call it.

I can't see a conflict here for instructors in student cars. As I read the existing regulations, safety equipment installed for the driver must be equivalent for the passenger. This seems to clearly mandate that if the driver has installed HALO seats and harnesses, the passenger seat must be equivalently equipped.

If the driver is using a harness without a HANS, that doesn't appear to prohibit the use of a HANS device by the instructor in either seat since the left seat should also offer the same equipment. Similarly, the instructor is allowed to wear a fire suit. Gloves. All the other personal safety equipment the instructor finds appropriate.

What have I missed?

 

Oops.