Vision and Car Control
08-15-2017, 04:26 PM
#61
Rennlist Member
Thank you, Mark
08-15-2017, 04:26 PM
#62
Rennlist Member
I've tried to sit down and write it out many times over the years. I've always found it very difficult to write down the whole process because I end up with >10 pages of perspectives on something that no one but me would understand. So lately I've been using Cunningham's law - wait for someone to post a wrong answer, and then it's a little easier to focus and simplify. My goal is to make Mental Telemetry as few pages as possible - optimize broad subjects into simple foundations, so that users can expand on the foundation using their own perspectives and experiences. The writing is still a work in progress.
I don't have anywhere near the money that some of you guys have to go out and buy race cars and race licenses. I have suggested one method that's relatively safe and affordable for anyone who wants to participate - Horse. It's like basketball - can you make this shot? We'll do it with car control. If you can't replicate the move, you get a letter. Once you get enough letters to spell out Horse, you're out. Last man standing wins.
Other things is I'm happy to coach for free. Some of you I'll sit in the car with because I know you're eager to develop your craft. Others I won't because I know they have something to prove, or I recognize that they might even be willing to hurt me.
I would be happy to demonstrate that my track/car learning process is more optimal than traditional ones. To make it relatively fair we can go to a track neither of us have been to, but we can even use your car so you have an advantage - if we can get insurance and it's not too much $$$, I'm willing to put up money in escrow to cover the deductible if I damage the car.
Another method I recently thought of is we can do an Arrive & Drive at a track neither of us has been to. Rent some spec miatas or the like. We'll do practice sessions, some time attack sessions, and if we're both comfortable with each other by the end of the day we'll go for a battle. We'll do at least 2 sessions of each, swapping cars to make sure it's fair.
Is F1 serious enough for you?
Senna 0:32
Schumacher 1:45
Prost 2:24
Prost 3:34
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP6JALYSsfg
I don't have anywhere near the money that some of you guys have to go out and buy race cars and race licenses. I have suggested one method that's relatively safe and affordable for anyone who wants to participate - Horse. It's like basketball - can you make this shot? We'll do it with car control. If you can't replicate the move, you get a letter. Once you get enough letters to spell out Horse, you're out. Last man standing wins.
Other things is I'm happy to coach for free. Some of you I'll sit in the car with because I know you're eager to develop your craft. Others I won't because I know they have something to prove, or I recognize that they might even be willing to hurt me.
I would be happy to demonstrate that my track/car learning process is more optimal than traditional ones. To make it relatively fair we can go to a track neither of us have been to, but we can even use your car so you have an advantage - if we can get insurance and it's not too much $$$, I'm willing to put up money in escrow to cover the deductible if I damage the car.
Another method I recently thought of is we can do an Arrive & Drive at a track neither of us has been to. Rent some spec miatas or the like. We'll do practice sessions, some time attack sessions, and if we're both comfortable with each other by the end of the day we'll go for a battle. We'll do at least 2 sessions of each, swapping cars to make sure it's fair.
Is F1 serious enough for you?
Senna 0:32
Schumacher 1:45
Prost 2:24
Prost 3:34
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP6JALYSsfg
08-15-2017, 04:29 PM
#63
Rennlist Member
Here is the net net. your examples are confusing cheating up on the wheel for leverage in a road racing application of road racing skill vs drifting/sliding, well over limits of the friction circle. this is a fundamental issue we all have with your argument. if you notice ALL of the F1 drivers always have one hand. (primary locator) fixed in a position to have instant position control and knowledge of wheel center. this compared with your drifting or anyone shuffle steering , where they are driving by "feel" and are not in 100% limit mode of the vehicle. in road racing, when you are shuttle steering. (both hands have left 9-3 (or 10/2) you are not in a position to best control the car at the edge or handle unforeseen car position changes... this goes for anyone.. even pros... senna in his video, or even al Unser, with horrible habits in a street car for the celebrity challenge, but none of these habits when driving Indy.
I've tried to sit down and write it out many times over the years. I've always found it very difficult to write down the whole process because I end up with >10 pages of perspectives on something that no one but me would understand. So lately I've been using Cunningham's law - wait for someone to post a wrong answer, and then it's a little easier to focus and simplify. My goal is to make Mental Telemetry as few pages as possible - optimize broad subjects into simple foundations, so that users can expand on the foundation using their own perspectives and experiences. The writing is still a work in progress.
I don't have anywhere near the money that some of you guys have to go out and buy race cars and race licenses. I have suggested one method that's relatively safe and affordable for anyone who wants to participate - Horse. It's like basketball - can you make this shot? We'll do it with car control. If you can't replicate the move, you get a letter. Once you get enough letters to spell out Horse, you're out. Last man standing wins.
Other things is I'm happy to coach for free. Some of you I'll sit in the car with because I know you're eager to develop your craft. Others I won't because I know they have something to prove, or I recognize that they might even be willing to hurt me.
I would be happy to demonstrate that my track/car learning process is more optimal than traditional ones. To make it relatively fair we can go to a track neither of us have been to, but we can even use your car so you have an advantage - if we can get insurance and it's not too much $$$, I'm willing to put up money in escrow to cover the deductible if I damage the car.
Another method I recently thought of is we can do an Arrive & Drive at a track neither of us has been to. Rent some spec miatas or the like. We'll do practice sessions, some time attack sessions, and if we're both comfortable with each other by the end of the day we'll go for a battle. We'll do at least 2 sessions of each, swapping cars to make sure it's fair.
Is F1 serious enough for you?
Senna 0:32
Schumacher 1:45
Prost 2:24
Prost 3:34
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP6JALYSsfg
I don't have anywhere near the money that some of you guys have to go out and buy race cars and race licenses. I have suggested one method that's relatively safe and affordable for anyone who wants to participate - Horse. It's like basketball - can you make this shot? We'll do it with car control. If you can't replicate the move, you get a letter. Once you get enough letters to spell out Horse, you're out. Last man standing wins.
Other things is I'm happy to coach for free. Some of you I'll sit in the car with because I know you're eager to develop your craft. Others I won't because I know they have something to prove, or I recognize that they might even be willing to hurt me.
I would be happy to demonstrate that my track/car learning process is more optimal than traditional ones. To make it relatively fair we can go to a track neither of us have been to, but we can even use your car so you have an advantage - if we can get insurance and it's not too much $$$, I'm willing to put up money in escrow to cover the deductible if I damage the car.
Another method I recently thought of is we can do an Arrive & Drive at a track neither of us has been to. Rent some spec miatas or the like. We'll do practice sessions, some time attack sessions, and if we're both comfortable with each other by the end of the day we'll go for a battle. We'll do at least 2 sessions of each, swapping cars to make sure it's fair.
Is F1 serious enough for you?
Senna 0:32
Schumacher 1:45
Prost 2:24
Prost 3:34
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP6JALYSsfg
08-15-2017, 04:30 PM
#64
Drifting
Thread Starter
I've offered a variety of challenges to prove it. Why don't you step up to the easiest challenge and play horse instead of constantly making personal attacks? I try to be objective as hell but when I see my schit being blatantly plagiarized I will call your *** out.
-Mike
08-15-2017, 04:33 PM
#65
Rennlist Member
Truly sorry Mike. great thread idea and my comment was on a very minor observation /suggestion to allow for continued improvement.
Yeah, 
.
How did this turn into effectively a "shuffle steering" thread? I appreciate the initial comments on hand position and will take them into consideration. Generally, we could all use a little advice here and there.
However, what I'd really like is more discussion about the initial post. I was at TWS again yesterday and I'm more convinced than ever this is a big revelation for me. As I stated, I've known about the importance of vision for a very long time - for some reason I just never connected it with car control which I'm considering as distinct from having the car on the right line/smoothness etc... I can't say I've read much about it either, although I would not consider myself a voracious reader.
I think my feelings on this are unique to me in the sense of the lack of sensitivity in my butt gyro - the visual aspect helps me. I can see someone with a very finely calibrated butt not needing this for car control but I'm guessing there are others out there similar to me.
I went to the track to have fun and learn how to drive a car fast - I had no idea how much I would learn about me.
-Mike
.How did this turn into effectively a "shuffle steering" thread? I appreciate the initial comments on hand position and will take them into consideration. Generally, we could all use a little advice here and there.
However, what I'd really like is more discussion about the initial post. I was at TWS again yesterday and I'm more convinced than ever this is a big revelation for me. As I stated, I've known about the importance of vision for a very long time - for some reason I just never connected it with car control which I'm considering as distinct from having the car on the right line/smoothness etc... I can't say I've read much about it either, although I would not consider myself a voracious reader.
I think my feelings on this are unique to me in the sense of the lack of sensitivity in my butt gyro - the visual aspect helps me. I can see someone with a very finely calibrated butt not needing this for car control but I'm guessing there are others out there similar to me.
I went to the track to have fun and learn how to drive a car fast - I had no idea how much I would learn about me.
-Mike
08-15-2017, 04:35 PM
#66
Rennlist Member
Agreed. Fantastic thread premise and topic!
08-15-2017, 04:42 PM
#67
Rennlist Member
So according to one who shall not be named, Senna, Schumacher, and Prost aren't in the race community because they don't use fixed hand positions.
Senna 0:32
Schumacher 1:45
Prost 2:24
Prost 3:34
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP6JALYSsfg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF0Xt6b525E
Senna 0:32
Schumacher 1:45
Prost 2:24
Prost 3:34
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP6JALYSsfg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF0Xt6b525E
again, most all here, Dave, mike, mike, and many others all know that when you start moving the hands around the wheel and spin it like you need a Bus ball, you are not at the limit of the cars friction circle capabilities. that is ONLY for extreme loss of control situation for recovery. most , if you are not too far outside of the control circle, can be corrected withOUT the hands moving at all. this is what any instructor will show and tell you.
08-15-2017, 04:42 PM
#68
Drifting
Thread Starter
But please don't feed the troll that thinks he has found something wrong on the internet and it is his divine purpose to fix it. It is certainly not adding to this conversation and likely driving people with interesting points of view away.
-Mike
08-15-2017, 04:54 PM
#70
Rennlist Member
Yep. Sure do. As a sponsor here I have been blessed with many clients who found me here.
Your point?
You really shouldn't keep peeing into the wind.
Your point?
You really shouldn't keep peeing into the wind.
08-15-2017, 05:09 PM
#71
Rennlist Member
Mark, no need to apologize. I thought the initial comments on hand position were useful and it is a car control thread after all.
But please don't feed the troll that thinks he has found something wrong on the internet and it is his divine purpose to fix it. It is certainly not adding to this conversation and likely driving people with interesting points of view away.
-Mike
But please don't feed the troll that thinks he has found something wrong on the internet and it is his divine purpose to fix it. It is certainly not adding to this conversation and likely driving people with interesting points of view away.
-Mike
Ill leave Phoking with one last comment.
Look, i know that is pointed at Dave, but i take offense as well. You come here , post a video of you driving, where half a lap you are completely out of control (from a racing perspective ) then clean it up for a few more turns ,where i complement you. Then, a month or two later, you come here and post a full drifting correcting turn sequence. (and by the way, drift can be induced or reactive.. it doesn't matter. when you have the steering wheel going 360 degrees in both direction, that is drifting) So, you then advocate against a fundamental quality of even, locked hand position. and by not understanding that the locked position, is still flexible for leverage instances (see F1 example), you say that fixed hands are bad.... in racing, if you are on the edge of control, you have margin to regain control or optimal grip, but knowing where wheel center is. this is FAR faster that MT or what ever you call it.
So, you then challenge all instructors that they are not as good as you, and that maybe instruction is not even needed. all of us have mentors that have helped us IN the car to improve, even if it was early on in our careers. you can only get so much from watching u tube videos.
Instead of challenging us with a bake off, why not just post your car's laps at a track near you and we can see and compare your lap times. Something tells me it will be a little off the pace.
how about this... post a lap your way, and one lap all out with no drifting and we will see which is faster! many of us have been doing this for decades.... you cant post a video of you being a drift king and expect to win our hearts over or think you have something to offer here to help. while i respect car control at full lock angles, its not a talent that has much value unless you really get your car bent out of shape by some serous driving mistake, or have been punted. one talent that most racers dont feel comfortable doing , is the "bat turn". I love doing those and are useful to those pointed the wrong direction on track to get back on. maybe show us a tutorial of your technique of doing them! that would be useful to some!
08-15-2017, 05:25 PM
#72
Ok so I skipped to the last page... but just to comment on the OP - yes, I agree 100%.
I had to learn this skill through motorcycling... as IMO it's even MORE important to "look where you want to go". So many people, while doing the speed limit on the street, seem to "ride off the side of the road" for no reason other than they got a little close to the white line, spooked themselves, then found themselves staring at the white line, the curb, the ditch.... and guess where they went? Right to the white line, the curb, and the ditch.
The thing I picked up early on was "turn your head"... the more I physically turned my head, the more I was forced to look far down the road, and the smoother/faster I got, while at the same time, FEELING like everything was so much slower.
It's something I share with my students today. And it's immediately noticeable when a student is/isn't doing it. Looking FAR ahead, the inputs are slow, smooth, steady. Looking at the pavement in front of the bumper, the student has TONS of corrections, all the controls/inputs are very, very busy.
Keep going down this path of discovery. It's the right way to go. It can be tough to adopt at first because it feels odd and you really have to "trust" the car will be where it needs to be.
I had to learn this skill through motorcycling... as IMO it's even MORE important to "look where you want to go". So many people, while doing the speed limit on the street, seem to "ride off the side of the road" for no reason other than they got a little close to the white line, spooked themselves, then found themselves staring at the white line, the curb, the ditch.... and guess where they went? Right to the white line, the curb, and the ditch.
The thing I picked up early on was "turn your head"... the more I physically turned my head, the more I was forced to look far down the road, and the smoother/faster I got, while at the same time, FEELING like everything was so much slower.
It's something I share with my students today. And it's immediately noticeable when a student is/isn't doing it. Looking FAR ahead, the inputs are slow, smooth, steady. Looking at the pavement in front of the bumper, the student has TONS of corrections, all the controls/inputs are very, very busy.
Keep going down this path of discovery. It's the right way to go. It can be tough to adopt at first because it feels odd and you really have to "trust" the car will be where it needs to be.
08-15-2017, 05:29 PM
#73
The Penguin King
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Thanks.. it was very minor.. dont take it as criticism. its good to be relaxed, but not too relaxed. when you drive a car with little power steering, those techniques can be very useful... i often struggle with it. my car is a bear to drive!
Ill leave Phoking with one last comment.
Look, i know that is pointed at Dave, but i take offense as well. You come here , post a video of you driving, where half a lap you are completely out of control (from a racing perspective ) then clean it up for a few more turns ,where i complement you. Then, a month or two later, you come here and post a full drifting correcting turn sequence. (and by the way, drift can be induced or reactive.. it doesn't matter. when you have the steering wheel going 360 degrees in both direction, that is drifting) So, you then advocate against a fundamental quality of even, locked hand position. and by not understanding that the locked position, is still flexible for leverage instances (see F1 example), you say that fixed hands are bad.... in racing, if you are on the edge of control, you have margin to regain control or optimal grip, but knowing where wheel center is. this is FAR faster that MT or what ever you call it.
So, you then challenge all instructors that they are not as good as you, and that maybe instruction is not even needed. all of us have mentors that have helped us IN the car to improve, even if it was early on in our careers. you can only get so much from watching u tube videos.
Instead of challenging us with a bake off, why not just post your car's laps at a track near you and we can see and compare your lap times. Something tells me it will be a little off the pace. how about this... post a lap your way, and one lap all out with no drifting and we will see which is faster!
many of us have been doing this for decades.... you cant post a video of you being a drift king and expect to win our hearts over or think you have something to offer here to help. while i respect car control at full lock angles, its not a talent that has much value unless you really get your car bent out of shape by some serous driving mistake, or have been punted. one talent that most racers dont feel comfortable doing , is the "bat turn". I love doing those and are useful to those pointed the wrong direction on track to get back on. maybe show us a tutorial of your technique of doing them! that would be useful to some!
Ill leave Phoking with one last comment.
Look, i know that is pointed at Dave, but i take offense as well. You come here , post a video of you driving, where half a lap you are completely out of control (from a racing perspective ) then clean it up for a few more turns ,where i complement you. Then, a month or two later, you come here and post a full drifting correcting turn sequence. (and by the way, drift can be induced or reactive.. it doesn't matter. when you have the steering wheel going 360 degrees in both direction, that is drifting) So, you then advocate against a fundamental quality of even, locked hand position. and by not understanding that the locked position, is still flexible for leverage instances (see F1 example), you say that fixed hands are bad.... in racing, if you are on the edge of control, you have margin to regain control or optimal grip, but knowing where wheel center is. this is FAR faster that MT or what ever you call it.
So, you then challenge all instructors that they are not as good as you, and that maybe instruction is not even needed. all of us have mentors that have helped us IN the car to improve, even if it was early on in our careers. you can only get so much from watching u tube videos.
Instead of challenging us with a bake off, why not just post your car's laps at a track near you and we can see and compare your lap times. Something tells me it will be a little off the pace.
how about this... post a lap your way, and one lap all out with no drifting and we will see which is faster! many of us have been doing this for decades.... you cant post a video of you being a drift king and expect to win our hearts over or think you have something to offer here to help. while i respect car control at full lock angles, its not a talent that has much value unless you really get your car bent out of shape by some serous driving mistake, or have been punted. one talent that most racers dont feel comfortable doing , is the "bat turn". I love doing those and are useful to those pointed the wrong direction on track to get back on. maybe show us a tutorial of your technique of doing them! that would be useful to some!
08-15-2017, 05:40 PM
#74
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by mglobe
Pho King Brilliant Mark. Well put.
Maybe the Pho King will Pho Koff
08-15-2017, 05:57 PM
#75
Three Wheelin'
s/ Now come on guys, back when you each wore a 'yellow' wristband you all thought you knew everything too.... /s
[We need a sarcasm font here....]
Another good topic flushed......