Vision and Car Control
08-14-2017, 11:22 AM
#1
Drifting
Thread Starter
Vision and Car Control
One of the things I find absolutely fascinating about this sport is how much I've learned about myself and how my mind works. A window onto something new for me cracked open last Tuesday and I fully opened it last weekend.
Car control for me has been tough to learn. I've always thought my car feel was fairly numb and nowhere near the level of my peers. Step outs tend to be dramatic affairs with that sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach and usually an undesired lift or other gas pedal mistake.
At the same time I'm aware of how important vision is. The car goes where the eyes go, etc... When I instruct, it is the first skill I work on with newbies once I know they are listening, have some measure of smoothness, can handle the mental load, and are willing to learn. I'll go from driving commands to simply telling them where to look and let their brain follow through. It is very successful, as I seldom have to issue corrective instructions. The biggest hurdle is the mental load, and I try to adjust things to a rate they can accept. Once they are doing well, I tell them to tell me where they are looking which naturally goes to seeing flags and they are on their way.
The new layer of the onion for me was putting together car control and vision. It hit me when I was actively working on looking down track and this happened at about 19 seconds at T6 TWS CCW:
I've never caught a step out that easily before. I only had one session that day, but I knew that trip through T6 was special and I analyzed the video later in the week. By Saturday, I was ready to concentrate on this more.
The picture below is T4-T9 at TWS with T6 in the upper right hand corner. The red dots represent the line the car is traveling on. The blue arrows are where my vision was last weekend.
Narrating the points:
I did this sort of eye pattern everywhere on the track and a curios thing happened. I was visually much more aware of the car's rotation and that was enough of a cue that my car feeling came up significantly. Some very small changes in front-rear grip where enough to see and feel - changes nowhere near enough to cause a step out and that I've never felt before.
Getting back to my opening statement, what I learned about myself is vision is key to me learning car control - I am much more of a visual learner than I ever imagined. I had now idea vision could be so useful for car control.
Vision, the gift that keeps on giving.
-Mike
Car control for me has been tough to learn. I've always thought my car feel was fairly numb and nowhere near the level of my peers. Step outs tend to be dramatic affairs with that sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach and usually an undesired lift or other gas pedal mistake.
At the same time I'm aware of how important vision is. The car goes where the eyes go, etc... When I instruct, it is the first skill I work on with newbies once I know they are listening, have some measure of smoothness, can handle the mental load, and are willing to learn. I'll go from driving commands to simply telling them where to look and let their brain follow through. It is very successful, as I seldom have to issue corrective instructions. The biggest hurdle is the mental load, and I try to adjust things to a rate they can accept. Once they are doing well, I tell them to tell me where they are looking which naturally goes to seeing flags and they are on their way.
The new layer of the onion for me was putting together car control and vision. It hit me when I was actively working on looking down track and this happened at about 19 seconds at T6 TWS CCW:
I've never caught a step out that easily before. I only had one session that day, but I knew that trip through T6 was special and I analyzed the video later in the week. By Saturday, I was ready to concentrate on this more.
The picture below is T4-T9 at TWS with T6 in the upper right hand corner. The red dots represent the line the car is traveling on. The blue arrows are where my vision was last weekend.
Narrating the points:
- It starts by looking and entering T5 mid track. Topology prevents seeing the T6 flag staition until entering T5.
- At the entry of T5, look out left window to T6 flag station.
- By the apex of T5, scan from the T6 flag station to the entry of T6.
- Before entering T6, scan back to the apex of T6.
- At the entry of T6 get the eyes as far down track as possible, scanning from the T6 exit to as far left as possible. At the same time, apply a little brake to rotate the car.
- Before 1/2 way to the apex of T6, see/feel that the rotation is complete and start getting on the throttle. This part happens very quick.
- By the apex of T6, eyes are way down the track and they stay there until T6 exit. The perspective gives a very good visual cue to the rotation rate of the car. On a good pass have 100% throttle before the apex of T6.
- After T6, scan the T7 apex, flag station, etc.
- Profit.
I did this sort of eye pattern everywhere on the track and a curios thing happened. I was visually much more aware of the car's rotation and that was enough of a cue that my car feeling came up significantly. Some very small changes in front-rear grip where enough to see and feel - changes nowhere near enough to cause a step out and that I've never felt before.
Getting back to my opening statement, what I learned about myself is vision is key to me learning car control - I am much more of a visual learner than I ever imagined. I had now idea vision could be so useful for car control.
Vision, the gift that keeps on giving.
-Mike
Last edited by TXE36; 08-15-2017 at 09:11 AM. Reason: grammar
08-14-2017, 12:12 PM
#2
Drifting
Working right now so I couldn't spend a lot of time analyzing this, but I will pick it up as soon as I can. This sounds like something I need to be doing. Thanks
08-14-2017, 12:18 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
see how your hands grip the wheel when you have the little correction? keep them like that. I would advise to not have that relaxed hand position normally. you need to be ready for the corrections and you need a good grip on the wheel to do so. take that "post" correction grip and leave your hands in that position always. people take , and instruct , the "relaxed" hand idea too far and it can be very dangerous.
08-14-2017, 12:29 PM
#4
Thanks for sharing. One of the many things that I love about this sport/hobby is that there is always something to learn and improve. I don't think I have ever said at the end of a rack day that "I really kept my vision up." I can do it in spurts but I still find myself looking down way too much.
08-14-2017, 01:54 PM
#7
Originally Posted by mark kibort
see how your hands grip the wheel when you have the little correction? keep them like that. I would advise to not have that relaxed hand position normally. you need to be ready for the corrections and you need a good grip on the wheel to do so. take that "post" correction grip and leave your hands in that position always. people take , and instruct , the "relaxed" hand idea too far and it can be very dangerous.
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08-14-2017, 05:34 PM
#9
Drifting
Thread Starter
I was surprised at early I could see the rotation upon braking at T6. Also surprising was how little braking was required. Back on power while easily putting the two left tires on the inside apex curbing.
WRT steering wheel grip I've always done better with a more relaxed grip. Car has power steering so it's no like a lot of force is required.
-Mike
WRT steering wheel grip I've always done better with a more relaxed grip. Car has power steering so it's no like a lot of force is required.
-Mike
08-14-2017, 05:49 PM
#10
Originally Posted by TXE36
I was surprised at early I could see the rotation upon braking at T6. Also surprising was how little braking was required. Back on power while easily putting the two left tires on the inside apex curbing.
WRT steering wheel grip I've always done better with a more relaxed grip. Car has power steering so it's no like a lot of force is required.
-Mike
WRT steering wheel grip I've always done better with a more relaxed grip. Car has power steering so it's no like a lot of force is required.
-Mike
08-14-2017, 05:49 PM
#11
Rennlist Member
no one in the motorsports world of any talent, holds the steering wheel like that. trust me, it will help your reaction time and control Just because Dave does it, doesn't make it correct or right. You had some control issues early on, so, I'm just trying to help you make it easier on yourself.watch andy lally drive your car. this is how you can be agressive and safe. you need good hand position. vs Dave who is palming the wheel and too relaxed. also look at 7:20 how he shifts.. funny how the isnt as bad with him at the wheel
( Even he still has some pedal timing release issues)as compared to dave, who might be showing a relaxation point, but that's not where you want to evolve to as a driver. firm, but relaxed grip will serve you better. sure this is no "race" but Lally's laps are about 6-8 seconds a lap faster, again...not that they were racing, but its much harder and you sacrifice control when you loosen the grip that much.
Last edited by mark kibort; 08-14-2017 at 06:20 PM.
08-14-2017, 06:29 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
Well I'll be damned if the influence of my recent writings in Mental Telemetry haven't been so obvious. I've always found it a bit disappointing when I share something, be it driving or business concepts, that shortly after learners will act like they've been doing it all their lives. As disheartening as it is, I accept that it's just human nature. As humans, we desire the security in believing that we accomplish things all on our own. Hell, this itself follows along the nature of Mental Telemetry (MT) - the practice aims to teach drivers how to develop all the tools they need to be learn to fish on their own, rather than sell drivers one fish at a time. Because of this, I learned long ago not to expect to satisfaction from receiving credit. I've found it much simpler to find satisfaction in seeing humans working together to become better at everything:
Mental Telemetry does not agree with this. A relaxed grip is closely related to one of the earliest driving fundamentals we learn; momentum. How do we explain momentum to drivers? The answer is simple: Conservation of energy. Carry as much momentum through the corner, using as little energy as possible. By entering this CoE concept into our mind as a "Primary," we can extend the idea towards calibrating other parts of our body to the vehicle.
Keep in mind that all the ideas of MT are closely related. We want to practice using the minimal amount of energy required in exercising any and every maneuver. It is important to connect the physics of CoE with the mental concept of "do with what you got." By using only the minimal amount of "what you got (energy)," we also learn to conserve an extra reserve of said "what you got (energy)." What does this mean for our hands and arms? Keep them as relaxed as possible, as often as possible. By using as little energy as possible, including the tiny bit of energy required to keep your hands at 9 and 3 when one or both hands can be resting lower, we reduce the drain on both our physical and mental energy. Some of you are gonna love what comes next; we need not only to always be looking ahead, we also always need to be thinking ahead! Your hands shouldn't be in "ready" position if there is no need for it. You shouldn't be reacting to corrections - you should be predicting the situations/possibilities of corrections before they happen. It is only then that you move your hands up to the ready position. Otherwise, we always want to be conserving both the energy of ourselves and of our vehicle!
Every question or doubt about MT can self-answered with practice. However, I'll go ahead and address one glaring question; how do we handle those major corrections that we did not accurately predict, or did not predict at all? Well that's simple too - keep your mind open to shuffle steering. Shuffling allows you to turn the wheel faster than you can possibly turn the wheel with your hands. This is why it is important to calibrate the energy in your arms with the energy of the situation you are in. It's also difficult to shuffle steer if you have a death grip on the wheel - the lighter your grip is, the more you can feel. Once you're calibrated with the car, you can even take your hands off the wheel and just feel everything with your butt. Don't take my word for it, here is a short video example of MT in action. Wide open throttle, double toss into full lock, hands hop over the steering wheel buttons, with the snap seamlessly diluted to precisely position the car for the next corner. The line is still drawn beautifully behind the car!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSQXJa6GNGk
Lesson 1 and Lesson End:
Look how relaxed Senna's hands are. There is no static position on the steering wheel. He is fully calibrated and uses the parts of the steering wheel which he has feels is optimal based on his situation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmwaCjLg8MY
Mental Telemetry does not agree with this. A relaxed grip is closely related to one of the earliest driving fundamentals we learn; momentum. How do we explain momentum to drivers? The answer is simple: Conservation of energy. Carry as much momentum through the corner, using as little energy as possible. By entering this CoE concept into our mind as a "Primary," we can extend the idea towards calibrating other parts of our body to the vehicle.
Keep in mind that all the ideas of MT are closely related. We want to practice using the minimal amount of energy required in exercising any and every maneuver. It is important to connect the physics of CoE with the mental concept of "do with what you got." By using only the minimal amount of "what you got (energy)," we also learn to conserve an extra reserve of said "what you got (energy)." What does this mean for our hands and arms? Keep them as relaxed as possible, as often as possible. By using as little energy as possible, including the tiny bit of energy required to keep your hands at 9 and 3 when one or both hands can be resting lower, we reduce the drain on both our physical and mental energy. Some of you are gonna love what comes next; we need not only to always be looking ahead, we also always need to be thinking ahead! Your hands shouldn't be in "ready" position if there is no need for it. You shouldn't be reacting to corrections - you should be predicting the situations/possibilities of corrections before they happen. It is only then that you move your hands up to the ready position. Otherwise, we always want to be conserving both the energy of ourselves and of our vehicle!
Every question or doubt about MT can self-answered with practice. However, I'll go ahead and address one glaring question; how do we handle those major corrections that we did not accurately predict, or did not predict at all? Well that's simple too - keep your mind open to shuffle steering. Shuffling allows you to turn the wheel faster than you can possibly turn the wheel with your hands. This is why it is important to calibrate the energy in your arms with the energy of the situation you are in. It's also difficult to shuffle steer if you have a death grip on the wheel - the lighter your grip is, the more you can feel. Once you're calibrated with the car, you can even take your hands off the wheel and just feel everything with your butt. Don't take my word for it, here is a short video example of MT in action. Wide open throttle, double toss into full lock, hands hop over the steering wheel buttons, with the snap seamlessly diluted to precisely position the car for the next corner. The line is still drawn beautifully behind the car!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSQXJa6GNGk
Lesson 1 and Lesson End:
Look how relaxed Senna's hands are. There is no static position on the steering wheel. He is fully calibrated and uses the parts of the steering wheel which he has feels is optimal based on his situation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmwaCjLg8MY
when road racing you need to be firm but relaxed to get the fastest response. its the same think in many other sports. with the relatively small moments of the hands, and reaction to when things go wrong requiring a subconscious knowledge of wheel center and degree of steering input, its less about feel and more about prediction. (drifting is feel, road racing is about prediction)
your video is some of the sloppiest driving ive seen............... I've made comments before when you did this and then cleaned up your act. if i was behind you , i would have shot right by...........this is 20 years of racing vs your ricky racer drifting
in your video, at one point, your steering wheel has rotated 360 degrees. in my racing book and many others, this is total loss of racing control... now you are just a street exhibition at that point.
Now, if you want to talk about "physics" analogies... your MT and CE are a little off. when your hand and arms have some tension, it is MUCH faster to turn move muscles that are pre-energized (thinik potential energy) vs relaxed and need to be "woken up". think of the arms and hands having stored energy ready to be released and converted to kineitic energy. this is sports kinesiology 101
Class dismissed.
as a reference.. watch this and learn about car control and hand position. tons of HP, lots of wheel spin, hands never move...always a firm grip.
Last edited by mark kibort; 08-14-2017 at 06:52 PM.
08-14-2017, 08:15 PM
#15
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Thundermoose
Look at Dave. Relaxed grip but hands are always in the correct and same position. Your hands still move too much.
Mark, buddy, I was only palming the wheel at very low speed. If you could get treatment from your chronic cranial rectosis, you'd realize that at speed my grip is exactly as Thundermoose says and all the videos I have posted illustrate.
You should stop using a twelve pound pendulum of a keychain, stop using 30 year old bushings and brake pads, stop keeping one hand on your shifter because you race with faulty gear, and all the other incredibly unwise crap you do BEFORE you criticize others' driving.
That said, Pho, that was not the best video to use to show off.
Mike, again, great thread. And yeah, T6 barely requires a 1 brake pedal in my old car...