718 GT4?
#8206
Racer
Today I remembered my earlier pricing predictions for the 718 GT4...
Posted 1-Apr-2019, I was pretty close on that assumed base price of $118,700. From the 981 @$96,500 to the 718 @ $113,800 (Which is really 115,050 after "destination" charge)... pretty big price increase for what the car has to offer IMO.
Canadian pricing on the 981 GT4 was very attractive considering the delta between the CAD and USD, we were getting something like 15% discount relative to our peers south of the border.
I would agree that the average Canadian 718 GT4 will sticker for around 135K, optioned out with PDK I could see it touching 150K, with PTS even 160K.
To keep the rumor mill alive, I'm thinking Porsche will keep the GT4 formula consistent for the second iteration, I suspect it will get the 3.0T from the 991.2 Carrera or will simply retain the 3.8L from the previous generation w/ subtle improvements... I just can't see it being a de-tuned version of the 991.2 GT3 4.0L.
It's frustrating how effective Porsche is with keeping the cards closet to the chest, can't someone leak the damn details already!
Edit - Estimating MSRP of 718 GT4
Consider the following:
991 GTS base is 137,800, 991 GT3 base is 163,300 = Base GT3 is roughly 19% more expensive than the base GTS.
718 GTS base is 92,600, x1.19 = Assumed base GT4 pricing of 110,194
I would then argue that there is a premium for it having a 6 cylinder + VW/Audi group greediness + awareness of current 981 GT4 values + need to price it sufficiently below the 991.1 GT3 = My assumed Canadian base price of 118,700
I would agree that the average Canadian 718 GT4 will sticker for around 135K, optioned out with PDK I could see it touching 150K, with PTS even 160K.
To keep the rumor mill alive, I'm thinking Porsche will keep the GT4 formula consistent for the second iteration, I suspect it will get the 3.0T from the 991.2 Carrera or will simply retain the 3.8L from the previous generation w/ subtle improvements... I just can't see it being a de-tuned version of the 991.2 GT3 4.0L.
It's frustrating how effective Porsche is with keeping the cards closet to the chest, can't someone leak the damn details already!
Edit - Estimating MSRP of 718 GT4
Consider the following:
991 GTS base is 137,800, 991 GT3 base is 163,300 = Base GT3 is roughly 19% more expensive than the base GTS.
718 GTS base is 92,600, x1.19 = Assumed base GT4 pricing of 110,194
I would then argue that there is a premium for it having a 6 cylinder + VW/Audi group greediness + awareness of current 981 GT4 values + need to price it sufficiently below the 991.1 GT3 = My assumed Canadian base price of 118,700
#8207
Today I remembered my earlier pricing predictions for the 718 GT4...
Posted 1-Apr-2019, I was pretty close on that assumed base price of $118,700. From the 981 @$96,500 to the 718 @ $113,800 (Which is really 115,050 after "destination" charge)... pretty big price increase for what the car has to offer IMO.
Posted 1-Apr-2019, I was pretty close on that assumed base price of $118,700. From the 981 @$96,500 to the 718 @ $113,800 (Which is really 115,050 after "destination" charge)... pretty big price increase for what the car has to offer IMO.
What were you expecting it to offer?
Checkout the reviews - they are very good. Looks exceptional to me. 👍😀
With Porsche GT cars all the small changes add up to a lot. They are not defined by the spec sheet but by what they actually achieve and deliver.
Wait for the independent track tests - it'll be 2s a minute quicker than the 981GT4 (in OEM configuration).
#8208
Awesome. Hopefully that is carried over. I know the regulations are different in Europe. There was a lot of discussion when I bought my M2 on how the European model had the start/stop override to on on vehicle start but the US model is push it once and it stays off.
#8209
Rennlist Member
What were you expecting it to offer?
Checkout the reviews - they are very good. Looks exceptional to me. 👍😀
With Porsche GT cars all the small changes add up to a lot. They are not defined by the spec sheet but by what they actually achieve and deliver.
Wait for the independent track tests - it'll be 2s a minute quicker than the 981GT4 (in OEM configuration).
Checkout the reviews - they are very good. Looks exceptional to me. 👍😀
With Porsche GT cars all the small changes add up to a lot. They are not defined by the spec sheet but by what they actually achieve and deliver.
Wait for the independent track tests - it'll be 2s a minute quicker than the 981GT4 (in OEM configuration).
#8210
Drifting
No doubt the 981 GT4 is a great car. I think the 982 GT4 (and Spyder that I want) are better by most measures, but I agree it might not be enough of a change to justify spending significantly more money for an existing 981 owner, and some may like the quirks of a 981.
I’ll be ordering a Spyder once my dealer has an allocation for me. I don’t already have a 981 (GT4 or Spyder, only my lowly 987 base). The slight (if any) price premium of a new 718 /982 Spyder or GT4 over a used 981 in Canada is well worth it give the upgrades for me. The new red top option and the ability to custom spec it are a plus too. In Canada, 981 Spyders are still selling around 10-15% above MSRP. This is mainly because of the US market - they’re underpriced compared to the US in Canada. 981 prices will probably drop a bit once new 982s become available in Canada, but allocations will probably remain limited. The 981 prices might not drop too much, as used Canadian 981s can be sold to the USA, but new ones cannot.
One dilemma I have is getting the manual or waiting for the PDK. The PDK will no doubt be faster, and Tesla owners may make fun of the manual car’s 0-100 km/h time. However, it should be more engaging, and I plan to keep the car a long time. It may well be the last mid engined Porsche ever, and I’m sure in the future there will be electric cars that handily outperform even the PDK GT4, so I’m leaning towards manual so the car can remain a unique relic in the future.
I’ll be ordering a Spyder once my dealer has an allocation for me. I don’t already have a 981 (GT4 or Spyder, only my lowly 987 base). The slight (if any) price premium of a new 718 /982 Spyder or GT4 over a used 981 in Canada is well worth it give the upgrades for me. The new red top option and the ability to custom spec it are a plus too. In Canada, 981 Spyders are still selling around 10-15% above MSRP. This is mainly because of the US market - they’re underpriced compared to the US in Canada. 981 prices will probably drop a bit once new 982s become available in Canada, but allocations will probably remain limited. The 981 prices might not drop too much, as used Canadian 981s can be sold to the USA, but new ones cannot.
One dilemma I have is getting the manual or waiting for the PDK. The PDK will no doubt be faster, and Tesla owners may make fun of the manual car’s 0-100 km/h time. However, it should be more engaging, and I plan to keep the car a long time. It may well be the last mid engined Porsche ever, and I’m sure in the future there will be electric cars that handily outperform even the PDK GT4, so I’m leaning towards manual so the car can remain a unique relic in the future.
#8211
Really and you base this on what?
There is no massive step up here - we are talking about moving to MPSC2 N1 - these have been around for ages in 911 sizes for about 2 years.
I base my observations on the fact I have run many sets of these tires both round track and in tarmac events - often logged. Specifically N0 and N1. I can describe the friction circles in mind numbing and excruciating detail.
The improvements have been clearly outlined by Porsche and in reviews. These types of improvement have been made to others vehicles in the GT line up and 2s per minute is very much on par.
😀
There is no massive step up here - we are talking about moving to MPSC2 N1 - these have been around for ages in 911 sizes for about 2 years.
I base my observations on the fact I have run many sets of these tires both round track and in tarmac events - often logged. Specifically N0 and N1. I can describe the friction circles in mind numbing and excruciating detail.
The improvements have been clearly outlined by Porsche and in reviews. These types of improvement have been made to others vehicles in the GT line up and 2s per minute is very much on par.
😀
Last edited by groundhog; 07-13-2019 at 10:36 AM.
#8212
Rennlist Member
Really and you base this on what?
There is no step up here - we are talking about moving to MPSC2 N1 - these have been around for ages in 911 sizes for about 2 years.
I base my observations on the fact I have run many sets of these tires both round track and in tarmac events - often logged. Specifically N0 and N1. I can describe the friction circles in mind numbing and excruciating detail.
The 718GT4 is clearly a great unit - if you don't like it buy a second hand 981 GT4 or keep whatever you've got.
😀
There is no step up here - we are talking about moving to MPSC2 N1 - these have been around for ages in 911 sizes for about 2 years.
I base my observations on the fact I have run many sets of these tires both round track and in tarmac events - often logged. Specifically N0 and N1. I can describe the friction circles in mind numbing and excruciating detail.
The 718GT4 is clearly a great unit - if you don't like it buy a second hand 981 GT4 or keep whatever you've got.
😀
Porsche , including AP, say that 3 seconds of the 10-12 second Ring delta is drivetrain. I believe AP gives the tires some credit in the HC walk around at Good wood. That is give or take 25 % of the delta. There seems to be a general consensus of those who are regulars on the Ring that the recent changes have improved times . I have seen 3-6 second thrown around. Lets use 3 to be conservative. That leaves 4 to 6 seconds of the delta to suspension , tires, downforce etc. Lets use 5 seconds. 5 Seconds over a 7 plus minute lap suggests the delta would be measured in tenths per minute.
Further, the Ring is a high speed track so the weight penalty of the new car is less of an issue. ( Yes I have driven that fabulous toll road. ). Although I haven't driven a GT4 on the Ring I do own one and track it regulary and would bet there is no place on the Ring where you would be in second gear except maybe for the last series of turns before the start finish line. The point is the car on the Ring is always at 60 plus mph and the weight penalty is mitigated to some degree because of that . On US tracks , many of which are far tighter and slower, the weight issue will be a bigger issue and the improved downforce will be of far less consequence on tighter courses. For example, my home tracks are Hometead Florida and Sebring. I don't see much advantage at Homestead as there are only 2 turns on the road course where aero may matter, 1 and 10.
Sebring is a different story being in essence a series of straights connected by a few mid speed corners and series of high speed sweepers where the delta should be larger if the aero and suspension changes are material.
I wish we could get a better look at what they did to the rear suspension as that may be the most material change if they solved the hi speed issue with the 981 rear suspension. Some early articles hint a possible substantial change to the rear suspension .
Maybe someone will get OEM versions of each, put RE71 r's on both and let them rip. That would tell us a lot.
I still have high hopes for the RS... and a slot for one...
Cheers
Stay tuned.
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#8213
Perhaps they will make a GT4 RS with PDK and 440 NM with 450HP peak - I hope they do because it will be brilliant😀
#8214
Maybe...but you can bet that it will cost the same (or more) than a GT3 and still deliver less performance.
With the huge price increase of the 718 GT4 there's not much pricing room for an GT4 RS...but I do hope I'm wrong on this one.
#8215
With a PDK & LWBs std you will be at ~$10k premium. So for the rest of carbon hood, fenders, better aero, minor hp bump you expect a $35k premium. All told you are looking at a $45k premium if it comes. Lets not forget the stealer ADMs on top of that..
#8216
Porsche , including AP, say that 3 seconds of the 10-12 second Ring delta is drivetrain. I believe AP gives the tires some credit in the HC walk around at Good wood. That is give or take 25 % of the delta. There seems to be a general consensus of those who are regulars on the Ring that the recent changes have improved times . I have seen 3-6 second thrown around. Lets use 3 to be conservative. That leaves 4 to 6 seconds of the delta to suspension , tires, downforce etc. Lets use 5 seconds. 5 Seconds over a 7 plus minute lap suggests the delta would be measured in tenths per minute.
Further, the Ring is a high speed track so the weight penalty of the new car is less of an issue. ( Yes I have driven that fabulous toll road. ). Although I haven't driven a GT4 on the Ring I do own one and track it regulary and would bet there is no place on the Ring where you would be in second gear except maybe for the last series of turns before the start finish line. The point is the car on the Ring is always at 60 plus mph and the weight penalty is mitigated to some degree because of that . On US tracks , many of which are far tighter and slower, the weight issue will be a bigger issue and the improved downforce will be of far less consequence on tighter courses. For example, my home tracks are Hometead Florida and Sebring. I don't see much advantage at Homestead as there are only 2 turns on the road course where aero may matter, 1 and 10.
Sebring is a different story being in essence a series of straights connected by a few mid speed corners and series of high speed sweepers where the delta should be larger if the aero and suspension changes are material.
I wish we could get a better look at what they did to the rear suspension as that may be the most material change if they solved the hi speed issue with the 981 rear suspension. Some early articles hint a possible substantial change to the rear suspension .
Maybe someone will get OEM versions of each, put RE71 r's on both and let them rip. That would tell us a lot.
I still have high hopes for the RS... and a slot for one...
Cheers
Stay tuned.
Further, the Ring is a high speed track so the weight penalty of the new car is less of an issue. ( Yes I have driven that fabulous toll road. ). Although I haven't driven a GT4 on the Ring I do own one and track it regulary and would bet there is no place on the Ring where you would be in second gear except maybe for the last series of turns before the start finish line. The point is the car on the Ring is always at 60 plus mph and the weight penalty is mitigated to some degree because of that . On US tracks , many of which are far tighter and slower, the weight issue will be a bigger issue and the improved downforce will be of far less consequence on tighter courses. For example, my home tracks are Hometead Florida and Sebring. I don't see much advantage at Homestead as there are only 2 turns on the road course where aero may matter, 1 and 10.
Sebring is a different story being in essence a series of straights connected by a few mid speed corners and series of high speed sweepers where the delta should be larger if the aero and suspension changes are material.
I wish we could get a better look at what they did to the rear suspension as that may be the most material change if they solved the hi speed issue with the 981 rear suspension. Some early articles hint a possible substantial change to the rear suspension .
Maybe someone will get OEM versions of each, put RE71 r's on both and let them rip. That would tell us a lot.
I still have high hopes for the RS... and a slot for one...
Cheers
Stay tuned.
In a nutshell. There would have been a number of things that could have motivated me to trade up from a 981 to a 718 GT4:
- Lower gearing
- Better rear suspension that fixes the rear stability under high speed braking
- Rear wheel Steering like the GT3
- Significant styling improvents
- 20% or more hp
- Wider front tires
#8217
Although I haven't driven a GT4 on the Ring I do own one and track it regulary and would bet there is no place on the Ring where you would be in second gear except maybe for the last series of turns before the start finish line. The point is the car on the Ring is always at 60 plus mph and the weight penalty is mitigated to some degree because of that .
In my opinion the gearing of the 981 GT4 is not that bad for the ring.
#8218
Its been pretty thoroughly discussed in some of the technical threads on gearing that the 981 GT4’s gearing is pretty optimal for its engine power curve, with the exception of the 1st to 2nd gap.
#8219
Rennlist Member
Disclaimer. I am not suggesting the 981 GT4 needs all those things, but some, or all of those, would have justified the price increase. So for me, the minor tweaks they made are not worth the extra money. To be honest I am glad, since I've only had the 981 for 8 months and there is no way I can justify trading it in already.
Time will tell however. There will be plenty of opportunities to switch in the future or to the next iteration - whatever that will be.
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GoKart Mozart (07-14-2019)
#8220
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
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Nicely optioned too:
- GT silver
- Red top
- Spyder classic interior (red and black)
- Model designation delete
- 2 way sport seats plus
- Seat heating
- LED lights
- Light design package
- Auto climate control
- Auto dimming mirrors and auto wipers
- Bose
- Apple CarPlay (should remain useful longer and work better than Porsche Nav)