Mercedes V12 Bi-Turbo
09-09-2005, 11:27 AM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Mercedes V12 Bi-Turbo
I had a dream that the following happend to me yesterday.
I was on the I-75 yesterday afternoon cruising along at a leisurely pace. I notice a big merc sedan ahead and to my right do a jack rabbit like jump to move up and over one lane - to avoid slowing down for a car that he was moving up on. He repeats this excercise several times, 60 mph - 80 mph type runs, so I can tell that he is impressed with his car. So am I, quite frankly noticing that it says V-12 Bi-Turbo on the side. As I am getting beside him, he starts to excercise his technique again, and then he notices that there is a state trooper up ahead providing invaluable safety advice in the form of a ticket to someone off to the left hand side of the road. So he gets on the brakes and then slides in behind me, following a good 5 or 6 car lengths back.
In anticipation of him starting his excercises again, I drop down to third. When I notice him starting to move up I put the hammer down and so does he. I backed off shortly after the shift to 4th so it would have been around 100 - 110 I guess. I would call it a dead heat. I didn't move farther away from him that I could tell, and he didn't gain and inch (until after I had satisfied my curiousity and let off).
Not bad, I thought, thinking that he had around 500 or 550 hp. My supercharger belt slips a bit, so I know that there is another PSI available to me when I put the shorter belt on. I won't be afraid of these monsters once that task is complete.
Then I look this morning that those things have 604HP. HOLY HORSEPOWER BATMAN! I have to get my car on the dyno again!
I was on the I-75 yesterday afternoon cruising along at a leisurely pace. I notice a big merc sedan ahead and to my right do a jack rabbit like jump to move up and over one lane - to avoid slowing down for a car that he was moving up on. He repeats this excercise several times, 60 mph - 80 mph type runs, so I can tell that he is impressed with his car. So am I, quite frankly noticing that it says V-12 Bi-Turbo on the side. As I am getting beside him, he starts to excercise his technique again, and then he notices that there is a state trooper up ahead providing invaluable safety advice in the form of a ticket to someone off to the left hand side of the road. So he gets on the brakes and then slides in behind me, following a good 5 or 6 car lengths back.
In anticipation of him starting his excercises again, I drop down to third. When I notice him starting to move up I put the hammer down and so does he. I backed off shortly after the shift to 4th so it would have been around 100 - 110 I guess. I would call it a dead heat. I didn't move farther away from him that I could tell, and he didn't gain and inch (until after I had satisfied my curiousity and let off).
Not bad, I thought, thinking that he had around 500 or 550 hp. My supercharger belt slips a bit, so I know that there is another PSI available to me when I put the shorter belt on. I won't be afraid of these monsters once that task is complete.
Then I look this morning that those things have 604HP. HOLY HORSEPOWER BATMAN! I have to get my car on the dyno again!
09-09-2005, 11:46 AM
#2
Supercharged
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If this was the new S65, they also weigh a ton - actually more like 2.5 tons!
Mercedes P/W = 604/4900 = 0.12 HP/lb.
928 (S/C'd) = 460/3300 = 0.14/lb (Assuming 400 RWHP w/ 15% loss)
No wonder you held your ground.
Mercedes P/W = 604/4900 = 0.12 HP/lb.
928 (S/C'd) = 460/3300 = 0.14/lb (Assuming 400 RWHP w/ 15% loss)
No wonder you held your ground.
09-09-2005, 11:49 AM
#3
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I think you are right. I hadn't done the HP/Weight calc. I don't imagine that the CD could be much worse than a 928, but the frontal area is much greater on the big Merc Sedans. Should come in to play a little bit at speed.
Edit: A '91 Euro 928 GT weighs 3449 lb (test weight according to a UK car mag that I can't remember the name off the top of my head.)
Edit: A '91 Euro 928 GT weighs 3449 lb (test weight according to a UK car mag that I can't remember the name off the top of my head.)
09-09-2005, 12:32 PM
#4
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I saw a MBZ SL V-12 twin turbo in Beverly Hills the other day, and waited around for a short time to listen to it when it started, but unfortunately, I couldn't wait long enough 
. First and only time I've seen one.
. First and only time I've seen one.
09-09-2005, 12:38 PM
#5
Here is what Car and Driver thought of the twin-turbo Mercedes they drove:
Mercedes-Benz SL600
Oh, Lord, won't you buy me one of these?
BY TONY SWAN
PHOTOGRAPHY BY JEFFREY G. RUSSELL
March 2004
The lexicographers who update the work begun by Noah Webster in 1806 define torque as "the force that acts to produce rotation, as in an automotive vehicle."
Yeah, right. You can almost hear Lieutenant Commander Data. Dry. Rational. Devoid of emotion.
We suggest a more evocative description. Particularly when rotational force is served up in the quantities under scrutiny here. How about "Whoooooo-eeeee!" or "O-mi-gawd!"
Cut to the department of elapsed time. From a standing start, the Mercedes SL600 can hurl its 4501-pound bulk to 60 mph in 3.6 seconds. Does that sound like a very brief interval? Clue: yes.
Allow us to illustrate.The Porsche 911 GT2 we tested in March 2002—456 horsepower, 457 pound-feet of torque—required 3.8 seconds to achieve mile-a-minute velocity. The Dodge Viper we tested in November '02—500 horsepower, 525 pound-feet—took 3.9 seconds. The 911 GT3 and Ferrari Challenge Stradale in our January issue each clocked in at 4.0 seconds.
Let's check the next notch on the elapsed-time yardstick. The 911 GT2 covered the quarter-mile in 12 seconds flat, the Viper in 12.1, the GT3 and Stradale in 12.3 and 12.4, respectively. The SL600 did it in 11.9. That's not quite as quick as the Ford GT, but it would have put this elegant Benz in a tie for fifth place (out of 15 cars) in the quarter-mile elapsed-time competition in our September 2002 "Supercar Challenge."
Yet another contrast: The SL600 trumps the SL55 AMG, even though the AMG edition weighs in a tad lighter (4411 pounds), packs the same horsepower (493), and is the designated SL family hot rod. But in our November '02 test, the SL55 managed only—only!—4.5 seconds to 60, and cruised through the quarter in 13.0 seconds at 110 mph.
So what's up with that? Torque, that's what. It's not that the SL55 is deficient in this power commodity. Its supercharged 5.4-liter V-8 produces 516 pound-feet across a broad plateau of grunt that ranges from 2750 to 4000 rpm. Our test characterized its thrust as prodigious, and we stand by that assertion. But if the SL55's torque is prodigious, the SL600's is—what? monumental? heroic? elephantine?
Fed by twin turbos with twin intercoolers, the SL600's SOHC 36-valve, 60-degree aluminum V-12 spools up 590 pound-feet of torque, maintaining that mountainous level from 1800 rpm to 3500 rpm. The five-speed automatic offers a three-mode manumatic function, just as it does in the SL55, but with such an abundance of muscle, augmented by quick throttle response, it seems superfluous. When the driver wishes to summon haste, he has only to tramp on the pedal and the V-12 will mash him against the seatback in a flash.
Although heavyweight punching power is this car's métier, there's more to the SL600 than shrinking the time between points A and B. Mercedes-Benz's active-body-control system keeps cornering attitudes level, the steering is quick (albeit not particularly tactile) at 2.6 turns lock-to-lock, there's adequate grip (0.88 g) from the 18-inch Michelin Pilot Sport tires, and decent braking performance—178 feet from 70 mph.
However, for all its hefty athleticism, it's the unique blend of punch and posh that will justify the SL600's princely pricing. The tab starts at $129,270, including $2600 in guzzler duties—about the same as a Porsche 911 Turbo cabriolet. That includes all the self-indulgences you'd expect from a top-of-the-line Benz—orchestral audio, superb seating, elegant interior furnishings, and, of course, the convenience of a hardtop convertible.
Our test car had $7600 worth of enhancements that do not, in our view, enhance: $3010 for the Distronic distance-maintaining cruise control, $1060 for Parktronic proximity warning, $1840 for the transparent Panorama roof with sunshade (hey, it's a convertible, fer crissake), and $1040 for Keyless Go (what is the point?). You could make a case for the $650 tire-pressure monitor, but however you add it up, it's clear this car is not for young up-and-comers who just cracked the six-figure salary frontier. It's for the slightly older guy whose finances allow latitude for very expensive toys, a guy, furthermore, who may have lost some interest in power slides and oversteer but retains a strong appetite for longitudinal g loading.
For that guy, the SL600 is just about perfect.
Vehicle type: front-engine, rear-wheel-drive, 2-passenger, 2-door roadster
Price as tested: $136,870 (base price: $129,270)
Engine type: twin-turbocharged and intercooled SOHC 36-valve V-12, aluminum block and heads, port fuel injection
Displacement: 336 cu in, 5513cc
Power (SAE net): 493 bhp @ 5000 rpm
Torque (SAE net): 590 lb-ft @ 1800 rpm
Transmission: 5-speed automatic with
manumatic shifting
Wheelbase: 100.8 in
Length/width/height: 178.5/72.0/51.0 in
Curb weight: 4501 lb
Zero to 60 mph: 3.6 sec
Zero to 100 mph: .8.6 sec
Zero to 120 mph: .11.9 sec
Street start, 5-60 mph: 4.5 sec
Standing 1/4-mile: 11.9 sec @ 120 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 155 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 178 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.88 g
EPA fuel economy, city driving: 13 mpg
C/D-observed fuel economy: 14 mpg
Oh, Lord, won't you buy me one of these?
BY TONY SWAN
PHOTOGRAPHY BY JEFFREY G. RUSSELL
March 2004
The lexicographers who update the work begun by Noah Webster in 1806 define torque as "the force that acts to produce rotation, as in an automotive vehicle."
Yeah, right. You can almost hear Lieutenant Commander Data. Dry. Rational. Devoid of emotion.
We suggest a more evocative description. Particularly when rotational force is served up in the quantities under scrutiny here. How about "Whoooooo-eeeee!" or "O-mi-gawd!"
Cut to the department of elapsed time. From a standing start, the Mercedes SL600 can hurl its 4501-pound bulk to 60 mph in 3.6 seconds. Does that sound like a very brief interval? Clue: yes.
Allow us to illustrate.The Porsche 911 GT2 we tested in March 2002—456 horsepower, 457 pound-feet of torque—required 3.8 seconds to achieve mile-a-minute velocity. The Dodge Viper we tested in November '02—500 horsepower, 525 pound-feet—took 3.9 seconds. The 911 GT3 and Ferrari Challenge Stradale in our January issue each clocked in at 4.0 seconds.
Let's check the next notch on the elapsed-time yardstick. The 911 GT2 covered the quarter-mile in 12 seconds flat, the Viper in 12.1, the GT3 and Stradale in 12.3 and 12.4, respectively. The SL600 did it in 11.9. That's not quite as quick as the Ford GT, but it would have put this elegant Benz in a tie for fifth place (out of 15 cars) in the quarter-mile elapsed-time competition in our September 2002 "Supercar Challenge."
Yet another contrast: The SL600 trumps the SL55 AMG, even though the AMG edition weighs in a tad lighter (4411 pounds), packs the same horsepower (493), and is the designated SL family hot rod. But in our November '02 test, the SL55 managed only—only!—4.5 seconds to 60, and cruised through the quarter in 13.0 seconds at 110 mph.
So what's up with that? Torque, that's what. It's not that the SL55 is deficient in this power commodity. Its supercharged 5.4-liter V-8 produces 516 pound-feet across a broad plateau of grunt that ranges from 2750 to 4000 rpm. Our test characterized its thrust as prodigious, and we stand by that assertion. But if the SL55's torque is prodigious, the SL600's is—what? monumental? heroic? elephantine?
Fed by twin turbos with twin intercoolers, the SL600's SOHC 36-valve, 60-degree aluminum V-12 spools up 590 pound-feet of torque, maintaining that mountainous level from 1800 rpm to 3500 rpm. The five-speed automatic offers a three-mode manumatic function, just as it does in the SL55, but with such an abundance of muscle, augmented by quick throttle response, it seems superfluous. When the driver wishes to summon haste, he has only to tramp on the pedal and the V-12 will mash him against the seatback in a flash.
Although heavyweight punching power is this car's métier, there's more to the SL600 than shrinking the time between points A and B. Mercedes-Benz's active-body-control system keeps cornering attitudes level, the steering is quick (albeit not particularly tactile) at 2.6 turns lock-to-lock, there's adequate grip (0.88 g) from the 18-inch Michelin Pilot Sport tires, and decent braking performance—178 feet from 70 mph.
However, for all its hefty athleticism, it's the unique blend of punch and posh that will justify the SL600's princely pricing. The tab starts at $129,270, including $2600 in guzzler duties—about the same as a Porsche 911 Turbo cabriolet. That includes all the self-indulgences you'd expect from a top-of-the-line Benz—orchestral audio, superb seating, elegant interior furnishings, and, of course, the convenience of a hardtop convertible.
Our test car had $7600 worth of enhancements that do not, in our view, enhance: $3010 for the Distronic distance-maintaining cruise control, $1060 for Parktronic proximity warning, $1840 for the transparent Panorama roof with sunshade (hey, it's a convertible, fer crissake), and $1040 for Keyless Go (what is the point?). You could make a case for the $650 tire-pressure monitor, but however you add it up, it's clear this car is not for young up-and-comers who just cracked the six-figure salary frontier. It's for the slightly older guy whose finances allow latitude for very expensive toys, a guy, furthermore, who may have lost some interest in power slides and oversteer but retains a strong appetite for longitudinal g loading.
For that guy, the SL600 is just about perfect.
Vehicle type: front-engine, rear-wheel-drive, 2-passenger, 2-door roadster
Price as tested: $136,870 (base price: $129,270)
Engine type: twin-turbocharged and intercooled SOHC 36-valve V-12, aluminum block and heads, port fuel injection
Displacement: 336 cu in, 5513cc
Power (SAE net): 493 bhp @ 5000 rpm
Torque (SAE net): 590 lb-ft @ 1800 rpm
Transmission: 5-speed automatic with
manumatic shifting
Wheelbase: 100.8 in
Length/width/height: 178.5/72.0/51.0 in
Curb weight: 4501 lb
Zero to 60 mph: 3.6 sec
Zero to 100 mph: .8.6 sec
Zero to 120 mph: .11.9 sec
Street start, 5-60 mph: 4.5 sec
Standing 1/4-mile: 11.9 sec @ 120 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 155 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 178 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.88 g
EPA fuel economy, city driving: 13 mpg
C/D-observed fuel economy: 14 mpg
09-09-2005, 12:55 PM
#6
Drifting
yeah they are a heavy car. i saw one on track earlier this year with a bunch of 928s and a bmw m3 csl. the csl just killed while the merc was slower through the corners and on the brakes.
09-09-2005, 12:56 PM
#7
You don't even want to try the SL65 in a race:
http://www.mercedescarnage.com/Mercedes_Carnage_4.wmv
http://www.mercedescarnage.com/Mercedes_Carnage_4.wmv
Trending Topics
09-09-2005, 12:58 PM
#8
Drifting
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Zero to 60 mph: 3.6 sec
Zero to 100 mph: .8.6 sec
Zero to 120 mph: .11.9 sec
Street start, 5-60 mph: 4.5 sec
Standing 1/4-mile: 11.9 sec @ 120 mph
Zero to 100 mph: .8.6 sec
Zero to 120 mph: .11.9 sec
Street start, 5-60 mph: 4.5 sec
Standing 1/4-mile: 11.9 sec @ 120 mph
WTG Cameron, pretty darn good for a 14y/o car with the little 6psi Jag/Eaton system installed in one weekend.
09-09-2005, 01:08 PM
#9
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Originally Posted by Jim Nowak
You don't even want to try the SL65 in a race:
http://www.mercedescarnage.com/Mercedes_Carnage_4.wmv
http://www.mercedescarnage.com/Mercedes_Carnage_4.wmv
09-09-2005, 01:55 PM
#10
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The torque on those is limited by the computer to 590ftlbs to save the tranny. I read that bypassing the computer gives it around 800ftlbs and a little tuning gets over 900ftlbs.
09-09-2005, 04:37 PM
#11
Rennlist Member
another MORONIC report by whoever that "feeder to the psydo science " is. torque...... yeah right, its just one of those things. who was driving, conditions, tires , etc. 490hp is 490hp. torque of 590ftlbs at 1800rpm to 4000rpm is impressive, but has little to nothing to do with the torque to the wheels at near max hp during the race runs.
we are talking about a full second from 0-60mph. more involved . sure average hp to the wheels over the used rpm range is also key, but its average. both cars with 490hp and one of them with a "broader" torque range keeps more torque at the lower rpms (giving race rpms of 4500rpm to 6000rpm +)
another guy lost in the torque quagmire (sp?)
Mk
we are talking about a full second from 0-60mph. more involved . sure average hp to the wheels over the used rpm range is also key, but its average. both cars with 490hp and one of them with a "broader" torque range keeps more torque at the lower rpms (giving race rpms of 4500rpm to 6000rpm +)
another guy lost in the torque quagmire (sp?)
Mk
Originally Posted by Jim Nowak
Here is what Car and Driver thought of the twin-turbo Mercedes they drove:
09-09-2005, 04:46 PM
#12
Race Director
It probably was a standard S600 (only 493hp 590 torque) not an S65 since those all have the stronger biturbo V12 with 604hp & 758 torque from 2-3K rpms!!! Not bad...from what I understand even the 65 is limited in torque to save the tranny.....a quick chip change will give you well over 850ftlbs....insane power in those things! But they do weigh 1000lbs more than a 928!
Brian
Brian
09-09-2005, 04:55 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
really. that means even if it could put out 900ftlbs at 5000rpms, that would be 900hp or so. very unlikely.
the 590 torque at 4000rpms for example, would be 440hp at 4000rpms if the torque fell off at a 45degree angle, that would still keep 440hp all the way to redline. so, with 490hp peak, it probably falls off slightly better than a 45degree angle. great for average HP over the range, and probably has the equivilant of running most engines at 520hp (like a viper) .
these guys are so caught up in the "torque " discussion, they forget there are other factors in racing (drag or otherwise) we are talking about two cars with identical RATED FACTORY hp and maybe one has a better average hp than the other. (e55 vs e600 ) that difference is not 1 second 0-60mph!
One of the most likely culprets here is the ratings of the HP by the factory. heck, with a set of headers, my20year old 928 is running near 400hp,and the engine hasnt been touched in 20 years and its raced for 4 seasons! oh yeah, its only 316hp rated at the factory! right! heck, it was 340 when i got it, missing like a bangie, and still running all stock mufflers and manifolds.
all these cars are ALL over the map as far as manfactures ratings. Want another example , ever sit in on a viper dyno. REGULARLY, stock 1999 vipers get 440 hp /440torque at the rears, with only a cat back change or less. thats 517hp flywheel when the car is only rated for 450 flywheel.
MK
the 590 torque at 4000rpms for example, would be 440hp at 4000rpms if the torque fell off at a 45degree angle, that would still keep 440hp all the way to redline. so, with 490hp peak, it probably falls off slightly better than a 45degree angle. great for average HP over the range, and probably has the equivilant of running most engines at 520hp (like a viper) .
these guys are so caught up in the "torque " discussion, they forget there are other factors in racing (drag or otherwise) we are talking about two cars with identical RATED FACTORY hp and maybe one has a better average hp than the other. (e55 vs e600 ) that difference is not 1 second 0-60mph!
One of the most likely culprets here is the ratings of the HP by the factory. heck, with a set of headers, my20year old 928 is running near 400hp,and the engine hasnt been touched in 20 years and its raced for 4 seasons! oh yeah, its only 316hp rated at the factory! right! heck, it was 340 when i got it, missing like a bangie, and still running all stock mufflers and manifolds.
all these cars are ALL over the map as far as manfactures ratings. Want another example , ever sit in on a viper dyno. REGULARLY, stock 1999 vipers get 440 hp /440torque at the rears, with only a cat back change or less. thats 517hp flywheel when the car is only rated for 450 flywheel.
MK
Originally Posted by FlyingDog
The torque on those is limited by the computer to 590ftlbs to save the tranny. I read that bypassing the computer gives it around 800ftlbs and a little tuning gets over 900ftlbs.
09-09-2005, 04:55 PM
#14
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I didn't get the badge other than the big V12 Bi-Turbo on the side. It was not a 2dr coupe like the SL. It was a monster 4 door sedan. All of the Merc's that I could find online with a V12 Bi-Turbo showed 604 HP. It looked like it could weigh 5k lbs.
It was a very short encounter, but a very pleasing one for me nonetheless. I am pretty sure mr. big was planning on a different outcome when he put the peddle down, whatever the hell car he was in.
Andy,
Yup, pretty darn good indeed!
It was a very short encounter, but a very pleasing one for me nonetheless. I am pretty sure mr. big was planning on a different outcome when he put the peddle down, whatever the hell car he was in.
Andy,
Yup, pretty darn good indeed!
09-09-2005, 05:07 PM
#15
Race Director
Okay I found the link:
http://www.renntechmercedes.com/AMG65.html
try 650hp and 840 torque...not bad at all....still a 4500-5000lb car though! I wonder if those engines will last 300K miles like our engines?
Brian
http://www.renntechmercedes.com/AMG65.html
try 650hp and 840 torque...not bad at all....still a 4500-5000lb car though! I wonder if those engines will last 300K miles like our engines?
Brian