mpesik

mpesik

Excellent worf928........ Nicole you are amazing! Mike

worf928

Mike, you've jogged my memory of that conversation.

The driver didn't mention lack of racing support. He mentioned that the factory threatened Brumos' access to road-going cars. These days we'd say Zuffenhausen threatened Brumos' allocation.

The general topic of why the Factory 'un-supported' the 928 only a few years after its debut has been much-debated and much-investigated by the 928 folks. I'll bet Nicole kann sich erinnern about the specifics better than I, but, if I recall correctly, the management faction that supported the development of the 928 as the replacement for the 911 lost its hold on the company and the 'stay-the-course-with-the-911' management faction shoved the 928 - effectively - into the R&D dust bin.

During the 1980s and 1990s the 944 went through three evolutions - two of them major (951, 968), and let's not forget the 951S, the Europe-only 968CS and 968 TurboCS (what a freekin' awesome car!). I can't say I know anything about the 911 prior to the 964 in 1989/90, but with the 964 the 911 folks got another awesome turbo, four-wheel drive, cabs, etc. Then the 993 which was a big step and also in many flavors.

During the same period the 928 got a 32v engine in 85 and 86 - a bit earlier but more-or-less parallel with the 944S2. Then a major upgrade with the S4. Finally in 1992 we got the GTS which was a relatively minor (by 944 and 911 standards) evolution. Of course, one can argue - since the 928 was such a low volume car why bother with R&D?

Prophesies can be self-fulfilling.

mpesik

Thanks Mr. worf928. You know about Nicole and her store, perhaps she should start selling Porsche crests with her picture on it! She must be one of Porsches' Illegitimate children. I'ts in her blood! Mike.

Nicole

I don't know anything about the inside discussions at Porsche, but I suspect the management realized the following:

- Many people wanted a Porsche 911 because it was vastly different from any other car and had no competition
- The 928 was kind of stuck in the middle - the potential to beat any 911 of its time, but the comfort of a Mercedes.
- From a marketing persepctive, it was best for Porsche to sell what people wanted from them, not what was the best product. As we all know, the best product rarely wins in the market. Just compare MS Windows and Apple OS...
- Racing the 928 would have shown its true potential at a time when the factory realized that because of customer demand, it will never replace the 911 in the marketplace. They would have created a conflict "dangerous" to their overall sales. So they repositioned the 911 as their sports and race car, and the 928 from "911 successor" to the factory's "grand touring alternative". As you can see from the posts above, this marketing strategy has worked very well, even though it ended up suffocating 928 sales in the long run.

When determining what is or was "the best Porsche", we always have to keep in mind the time when a certain model was built. "The best" is relative, because anything newer can always built on past experience and be better than before. So, in that sense, the 997 migh tbe the best Porsche ever, because it's the newest and can build on the experience from all former models.

This still leaves the question, which was the best Porsche in relation to the time when it was produced. That's where I see the 928 (and 959) leading. Porsche had to reengineer the 944 and 911 multiple times to keep them competitive or ahead of the 928. And that, given the fact that the 928s full potential was never ever unleashed in production form, because of the above mentioned marketing issues.

BTW: Today at Infineon Raceway, we have seen a 928 work its way from 20th to 10th place, beating lots of newer, expensive, and much better supported racers like Vipers, Corvettes, etc. This race car is over 15 years old, has three seasons on the first engine (OK, it's stroked...), and has never missed a beat. Others were running rough, had to stop at the pits, do whatever - the 928 was on the track, running like clockwork. Watch out for Mark Anderson and his magic white shark!!!

Mark in Baltimore

Interesting views. I guess any car can be coulda, woulda, shoulda'd into greatness.

max911

LOL ..... marketing 101

adsc4s

I have to disagree to this point. If you are discussing the best Porsche in relation to time, it is hands down the 959. The 959 was so ahead of its time in relation to competition. The same cannot be said for the 928 or the 993 or the 944 or even the CGT.

993Maineiac

Very interesting thread.

The discussion about racing cannot be completed out of historical context. Porsche had always-and that includes during the era of thinking the shark and 944 derivatives would eventually take over from the 911 if sales dropped below 10-14K units/year in the late 70s-put their R&D DMs into the aircooled engines-even when they added some water cooling to specific parts. With that investment in the LeMans and (for an all too brief period (actually two too brief periods) rallying for the boxer engine it would not have behooved them to have a vasserkooler win in competition with the 911 based race car. They are doing the same today with the 986 which with its midengine layout and power/torque upgrades should be awesome on the track. Some privateers are doing that now from what I've read.

My only other comment-having loved owning both engine sited Porsches-is that trying to compare the 993 with the 928 is an apples and oranges discussion. They are VERY different Porsches. I'd personally love the rumored new Porsche line to be a resurection of the 928. Given the finances I'd have one of each.

Just my .0000000002

Al

Cameron

Thank you for this discussion. It is very interesting for me.

I own a '91 928 GT and love it. When I was in the market for my first Porsche in 1999, I chose a 1990 928 S4 over a new 2000 996. The 928 had similar performance and comfort and was about $50k less. This was going to be my daily driver and I was looking for a balance of Sports car + GT qualities. Given the like performance and comfort my preference was to pocket the $50k and go with the 928. The exclusivity factor came as a bonus (there are 996's all where I am)

Please don't flame me yet. Shortly thereafter (within a year I think), there was an article in a european car magazine comparing a early '90s 928 S4 to a new 996. I don't remember the mag now, but the assessment was so similar to the one that I went through, I was amazed. I think that their assesment was more focussed on which car had the better 'GT' qualities, recognizing that Porsche was building more GT qualities into their 'Sports Car' 996 line over time. Anyway, their conclusion was for me an independent validation of the peronal choice that I made.

Since then, I have been interested in exploiting the 'Sports Car' qualities of the car. My 928 was such a great daily driver (reliable, comfortable, fast, etc), that I stayed with the model line and went to a '91 928 GT. For those of you that don't know, the GT is more of the hotrod version of the 928 line. A bit more power, a 5-speed, higher final drive ratio, stiffer susp. The GT emphasized the Sports Car qualities of the 928 design over the GT qualities. Let me tell you, this car is a blast and has been a pleasure to Auto X and DE. My 13 year old car runs with my friends newer sports / supercars, but they have dropped anywhere from about $50k - $80k to get similar comfort and performance. I HAVE A 13 YEAR OLD CAR WITH 90K MILES!!! This still amazes me every single day.

One error IMHO that is being made in some of these discussions is when referring to all the 911 derivatives as the 911 as if they are the same car. The term 911 is now strictly marketing terminology. The only thing that the recent generation of cars has in common with the 911 is the location of the engine and some design styling cues. So to say that the company has been making the 911 for 40 years means that Porsche marketing department knows how to use propaganda effectively.

The other comment that I would like to make is that so many auto magazines of the time compared the 928 in automatic form to other P cars or other sports cars, that the comparisons were simply apples to oranges. This also led to the perception that the 928 is/was a GT, not a sports car.

My other favorite P cars are the 968 Cab and the 993. I will own them some day as well.

.....Cameron
'91 Euro GT

Nicole

Thanks for chiming in, Cameron! Very good input...

Mark in Baltimore

Very thoughtful comments, Cameron, but I respectfully and completely disagree with the above.

The 911 has evolved over forty years; just because it is not exactly the same as it was designed in the '60's, does not mean the bloodline is any less pure.

If a manufacturer wants to call particular product by a specific model name which carries the layout, lineage and spirit of the original, that's fine by me and, apparently, several thousand Porsche enthusiasts, to be conservative and generous. Not allowing so ties the hands of the builder and prevents change. Witness the new Mustang: hardly the same car from the original platform forty years ago, but is it any less a Mustang? If a die-hard 289 owner hates the new model, so be it; he will simply refer to the latest iteration as "that crappy Mustang". (Now, the Probe, originally introduced as a Mustang replacement, would have been a bit of a stretch because of its layout, had it been called a Mustang.)

The engine location and styling cues of the 911 have changed very little and, even if you think the 996/7 is more GT and less sports car, the corporate mission of having the 911/996/7 live up to the moniker of company flagship has not deviated. Granted, Porsche tried to change that with the introduction of the 928, but, well, what happened to the 928? Therein lies the rub.

Gee, I thought I was cynical.

hacker-pschorr

Forget California. A 1988 S4 dyno'd at 525hp at the rear wheels (close to 600hp at the crank?)

Down the road is a friend of ours that is running 10psi more than the car above. Dyno yet to be run. His #1 problem with the car is running out of numbers on his speedometer.

The 2nd car is driven every day (non-snow) to work and back. About 30 miles round trip. And gets 25mph highway.

A 3rd gentlemen 100 south of us is running the same setup as the first 928 has a 2001 Z06 and a 993 in the garage as well. After the install he commented on how slow the other two cars are.

Many others around the country, lurking, waiting to suprise.

About the weight loss program - it's Wisconsin, that kind of talk can get a man shot.

This is a very fun thread!

sweanders

I've owned a few 944's and a 928 and have driven 911 Carrera 3,2, 964C2 and a 993C4. The Cars I've owned I've of course been able to drive more and learn the handling limits better with than with the 911's - but I do have a feel for them.

If you consider that the 968 turbo S and RS car were the fastest road legal Porsches at their time and that the 944 turbo Cup was faster around the Hockenheimring than a 959 it is very sad for me as a watercooler fan to see that Porsche never gave the front engined cars the full opportunity to be compared with the 911 and 911 turbo cars.

For example the 944 turbo Cup that I own has a factory figure of 0-100 km/h in 5,7 seconds while it in real life tests has done 4,4 second times. I do not know how fast the car is since the speedo only goes to 270 km/h - after this it stops and the revs keep climbing (on a stock car). At 6500 rpm's (rev limiter) it should top out at ~270 real km/h. I know a few people who has raised the rev limit to 7000 rpm's and their engines still hold up nicely.

When looking at the original chips for a 944 turbo there are a few strange strange parameters there that when changed gives the car an extra boost from 220 to 265 hp (early cars) and from 250 to 295 hp (later cars). With the Cup chips also a 305 hp version was available (what I have in my car). It has been speculated that the 944 turbo cars were de-tuned since it wouldn't look good if they were faster than the flagship 911 turbo which it still was in some tests. Often because it was easier to drive fast.

The 928S4/GT/GTS were for many years the fastest production Porsche, I believe it was until the 965S arrived that the 911's were actually slower regarding to top speed than a car that is by many not considered to be a proper sports car (928GTS).

I was in my 928GT able to beat a Ferrari 355 driver on a Slalom event over a ~2minute course. The fastest 911 on R-rated tires were timed at 1:43 and 1:46 seconds, the Ferrari on Street tires was timed in at 2:06 and I manage to get a 1:59 minute time in the big heavy 928 with dual AC and leather everywhere on street tires..

I don't want to say that the 911-series of cars aren't good enough because I love them and would like to own a 993. I'm saying that it's a shame that Porsche couldn't afford to fund marketing campaigns for both series of cars (front and rear engined).

I myself prefer the 944 and 928 series cars since I think they are easier to drive fast, even though the 911 might have a more optimized weight distribution when it comes to acceleration and braking (in a straight line)..

Cameron

Mark,

I re-read my comment and stand by it. My point is not entirely clear, though. We may be more in agreement than it appears.

What I am trying to say is that the 911 variants are so different from the 911 that they are referred to as a 911 purely for marketing purposes. Yes, to maintain a lineage, if only for marketing purposes, back to the early days. I don't imagine that there is a single part on todays 996 that shares a part number with the original 911. I could be wrong, but I would be surprised.

In fact, I see the 912 as being much closer to the 911, but it is not a member of the 911 family, or is it? It has 912 on its back where as todays 996 will say 911 on the back.

The other reason that I was making the point about how different the 911 variants are is that some versions are quite GT - like the base tiptronic 996. Other versions are pure sports - like the TT or the GT3. So the error that I was referring to - especially on a board like this with such knowledgable members - is to refer to all 911s and not consider each one for what it was designed to be and to do best. If the 911 is the pure sports car and the 928 the pure GT of the marque, I would put someone in my 928 GT and then in a 996 tiptronic and I believe that they would call my 928 the sports car of the two. Now, put them in a GT3 afterwards and, well, you know where I am going.

Why did the 928 die? Great question. From what I can see, it was overpriced and under-developed at the end of the 18 year run. Probably by design. We do know that Porsche needed a 'low cost' vehicle that it could sell in higher volume primarily in the US market in order to maintain independence during the early 90s soft luxury/sports car market. I believe that the 986 saved Porsche (from being purchased - not from the name disappearing). I don't believe that it was the 993 (or should I say 911). But I am not an expert on this by any means, I am just going by what I have read over time.

All of these cars are great. And so are good number of the folks who drive them. Each one is special because it does what it was designed to do so well. As the first pure Porsche ground up design, I can tell you that they did a great job on my 928!

.....Cameron
'91 Euro GT