OldGuy

Kaz I dont understand your point. the 993 and the 996 are hugely different- not even close. the only 996 I would take would be Rockitmans GT3!!
One thing I do know is its great to have this interfamily discussion.
But If I was in a huge get together and everyone is throwing everyone else
thier keys (we have done this before at 993 get-togethers) right now I go home with mine. For the price of the 993TT you can buy several 928's and right now 993TT's are on their way back up in price. I still dont think 2 or 3 add up to one 911TT or 911GT3. Only the GT3 would may me take pause and think. But you all can keep your 928's cause it makes you happy. How many LeMans races has the 928 been in, just out of curiosity?
BTW in the latest issue of Excellence they had Porsche Experts pick their top 10 Porsche designs Votes were
911 variant 21 votes
928 variant 2 (both for the same 1978 model)
the 914 got more votes

Nicole

Excellent's subscriber base is very little 928 - they don't have to please us. We have our own magazine, our own owners club, our own parts suppliers and even some specialized repair shops. Why? Because of the ignorance of the established Porsche clubs and businesses, including the factory. They are just now beginning to realize what a strong following the 928 really has. There are still about 20,000 928s on the road in North America. That's quite a number. And nowadays, most of them are in the hands of enthusiasts.

Why did they stop making the 928? There's a really simple answer: It was too expensive to make, in order to sell enough of it for a good profit and invest in continued engineering. We know the engine was not even close to its peak development, and Porsche had already worked on an updated look.

However, in the early 90ies, Porsche was producing three model lines at the Stuttgart factory - and they hardly had one screw in common. When Dr. Wiedeking took the helm of the company - he is a production expert - his strategy was to reduce the model lineup to two model lines that share components and bring the cost down to a level where the products would be more competitive.

We all know that he overdid this strategy, and there was not enough differentiation between the 986 and 996, to justify a 50% price difference. They are correcting this now - you've seen pics of the new 997, and you can see pics of the new Boxster at www.auto-motor-sport.de under "Erlkönige"

The 928 was a high end, clean sheet design of the early 70ies - very innovative for its time - and therefore very complex. Remember this was before all the modern electronics and CAD were available. I think the fact that it was made for 18 years without major changes is actually pretty good. During that time it never needed an all new chassis like the 911 did twice until it became the 993. When the 993 was born, many of its capabilities had been available in 928 form for more than 15 years. The 993 rear axle, for example, would not be what it is, had there not been the 928 and the experience they got form the Weissach axle.

In fact, the 911 had fallen behind in the late 80ies. For a while, the 944 turbo was the fastest track car porsche had to offer.The 911 had gotten into its own way, did not put the power down as well, lost too much grip in fast turns, and lost in a few comparison tests of the German press. The 928 was alwasy above that. Not as fast as the 944, but close with superior stability and comfort.

If you think your 993 is the best Porsche of all times, that's fine with me - I like them, too! Just give some credit to the other car that made it possible for the 993 to be what it is.

saphriel

No 550? THAT is the best Porsche ever!
Perhaps the more appropriate title of this poll is:

What Porsche model do YOU own?

Nicole

Just a computer rendering. Go to www.auto-motor-sport.de and click on "Erlkönige" - those are all computer enhanced images of cars that are not in production, yet.

saphriel

For what it's worth, the Boxster owner's are severely underrepresented.

Why? Because we're all outside driving!

So stop typing, and go drive your Porsche!

Drewster67

Thank You Nicole.

OldGuy

I did give credit where credit was due, but to be honest this poll was for the best Porsche ever. And to compare the 928 in that context with the 911 is just nonsensical. There is 40 years of 911. The 928 was Porsche's attempt at a luxury coupe period. It has a nice following. Good. It has its own magazine. Good. It has its own club. Great. Is it the best Porsche ever? No way. It had less than 20 years of existence. Being too expensive to make never stopped Porsche until the late 90's. Nobody was buying them anymore. The reason they have such a great following now is because you can get what was a 90 thousand dollar coupe for less than 10K.
But when you sit down and look at the historical context of the company and until recently its vast racing heritage, the production car that embodies that best 40 years ago and today is the 911. There no arugement there. That's just a fact. Its Porsches true representative of the sports car. The last air cooled, and hand made, example of that is the 993. You can argue with me which 911 is best and I will give you that. But outside of that scope, I will kindly disagree.

Kaz

Yes, thank you Nicole.

Oldguy I do realize that 993 and 996 are vastly different, it wasn't my intention to say they were the same. On a recent tire kicking spree I simply noticed that those two models had a comfort level you simply do not find in the earlier 911's but do find in 928's. That's just speaking to comfort though.

One of the problems with this pole is it does not articulate what makes whichever model of Porsche the best model. Price, resale value, HP, capability, tuning capability, longevity etc etc? Take your pick, something on that list is more important to some than others. Just so you know where I'm coming from, I do not describe to more expensive being automatically better. I actually really like the GT2 but at the end of the day, nothing in its design has been copied by other manufacturers. Two years ago I met a bunch of auto design students at Fontana raceway, they pored over my car and proceeded to list every vehicle design that was inspired by the 928. I simply had no idea and was stunned. To be fair Subaru did take on the flat 6 design in some of its models. They left the engine in the front though didn't they? Anyway.

The 928 never won any Lemans races. To the best of my knowledge it was never entered(maybe one was there was a story in Excellence on it) and therefore did not have the backing. Curious though that privately driven race prepped 928's have beaten even the LeMans entry Ferrari 360GT. Our engines (I'm talking about 5.0L and 6.5L stroked engines) can last year after year in competition but a GT3 Cup car needs an expensive tear down every 50 some hours of usage. Tell me something, 15 years from now will anyone be stroking GT3 engines for a third to double the rwhp without the use of turbos or superchargers? There's a reason Porsche is moving you guys to V8's. I have been to a number of POC events this year and I have yet to see a race prepped or street stock 911 keep up with a car 15 years its junior.

How much potential can there be in a car, engine and chassis if it takes the factory years and years and millions of dollars to turn it into something decent handling(for the general populace not just Derek Bell)? How much potential is there in a car, engine and chassis when privateers with limited funds can take a car, modify it and beat most of whatever is new not just from Porsche but Ferrari 360 Challange and GT's cars too?

That's my basis, not a key toss at some auto enthusiasts event since we all know you get to toss the keys back after 30 minutes.

mpesik

Any vehicle with a cup holder IS NO SPORTS CAR! That narrows things down a little more!!! MIKE

Mark in Baltimore

2nd of 2,

Actually, the poll reads "Choose your favorite Porsche...", while the topic header is "Best Porsche ever?". I think MetalSolid is talking about the best Porsche ever.

IMHO, the point is that the Viper driver was a newbie and was simply not driving his car anywhere near its potential. Between a 996 or 993 TT, I'm not sure whether a Viper would be eating sauerkraut, but, given equal drivers, ain't no stock 928 gonna keep up with a Viper, period.

I respect and love 928's, partly because they are such wonderful Porsches, partly because they are such fantastic GT cars, and partly because, when I see one on the road, it's such a rare occurrence, I can't help but smile at it's mere existence amongst the ubiquitous Camry's, Azteks, and Suburbans that infest our landscape. I think, since many of you diehard 928 fans are so ardently loyal because your cars have been underrated by current and past Porsche enthusiasts, you feel the need to be especially protective of a car that you rightly feel died an unjustified death. A pox on all of the commoners who cannot see the beauty of this engineering triumph, yes?

This poll is not about which car can turn the fastest lap times, but I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen a stock 928 at the track. Obviously, I would need the hands and feet of all of the local club members and their children to count the number of 911's I've seen at DE's or club races. The track is more suited to sports cars, as opposed to heavier, more luxurious GT cars, but, clearly, the point of this particular poll is not to find out which is the best sports car. However, Porsches, from the 356 to the 550 Spyder to the 904 to the 911, have always been about racing and a defined mission of corner carving. I guess I've never looked upon the 928 as being undistilled and pure Porsche, as good as it is and as much as I like it. Moreover, despite the racing 928's that have been gutted and tweaked and honed to competition perfection, really, these are examples of exceptions, however marvelously fast, rather than paradigms of the marque.

The 911 variant has been with us for over forty years! That's incredible, and true testament to the lasting engineering prescience of Porsche's architects, as well as to the longevity of a design that has had to weather four decades of economic changes and consumer tastes. The 928 was simply missing a certain mystique that did not allow it to live for very long, despite the premature death-knell its introduction sounded for the 911. Perhaps this absent air of mystery was borne out of the fact that the 928 was neither raced nor campaigned in the same manner as the 911's. Undeniably, Porsche is not actively involved in racing at the moment, but racing is the lifeblood of this company and, well, I find it a bit hard to say that a model that is more GT car and less sports car that does not have a dominating history of racing finishes is really the best Porsche. Sorry.

Disclosure: Yes, I voted for my own car, a 993, but the '84-'89 Carrera really comes close for me. I love my 993, but it's heavy, has power steering and lacks the litheness and purity of the Carrera. It's also fast as hell, is much more trouble-free than the Carrera and handles so much better. That said, if a bunch of Carrera owners were lauding the virtues of their models, I would be hard pressed to disagree with them.

worf928

Mark, that was well-written and well-reasoned.

Not changin' my mind though

mpesik

Totally an enjoyable read. Thankyou. Anyway I've read that Brumos Porsche wanted to race the 928 in the past. But, not without consequences. They would not be receiving to many popular Porsches from the factory! Mike.

Mark in Baltimore

S'okay.

worf928

The lack of a racing heritage is often cited by non-928 owners as a reason to choose other models in popularity contents such as this. The lack of 928s on the track is cited as well. Mine is often the only 928 at DEs I attend.

About seven years ago (while waiting for my 928 to have its alignment messed up the second time at a 911 shop) I had the opportunity to talk with a driver who was with Brumos in the 1980 time frame. There are two anecdotes from this conversation that have bearing on this topic:

- He related how much fun it was to drive the 928 on the track, keeping up with the 911s, with the windows up and the air conditioning on. ("Oh, the torque that thing had!")

- Brumos actually starting preparing for and talking with the Factory about campaigning a 928. The factory informed them that if they did race a 928 they would lose factory support for all their racing efforts.

Admittedly, this could have been all bull$hi+. Independent corroboration would be nice. Regardless of whether the above is fact or fiction, one thing is clear - with one exception around 1988 - the factory never tried to develop the 928 for racing and didn't support any teams or individuals who tried. In fact, the information the 928 community has about an abortive attempt at a circa-1988 928 "Cup Series" was provided unofficially and via direct contact with an specific and sympathetic engineer at the factory.

Despite the more-or-less official by-the-factory 'snubbing' of the 928, I would submit that if even a fraction of the funds poured into developing the 911 on the race track had been sent the 928's way, the story today would be very different. The relatively small sums that can be thrown at a 928 today result in competitive race cars. 928 racers have effectively zero go-fast parts that can be bolted on. Those that have go-fast parts have done the development on their own dime.

All of this is, of course, crying over spilled milk at this point.

I've driven several 996s. If I could fit in them I might sing their praises over the 928. I hope the 997 has an inch or two more shoulder room.

worf928

OK. It's not effectively zero. Let's see...

- there's one set of springs and dampers Kim Crumb busted his butt to develop.

- Louis Ott's developed front and rear sway bars.

- Louis' also done a nice exhaust piece.

So, that's three I guess...