2019 Cayenne Battery
02-23-2019, 03:40 AM
#31
Burning Brakes
Thanks for the detailed reply, BCA01. I took a look at the CTEK Lithium XS manual (https://www.ctek.com/storage/ma/00a7...nual-UK-EN.pdf). There is an interesting bit about overriding UVP on page 3 that reads as follows:
"BATTERIES WITH UNDER VOLTAGE PROTECTION: Some Lithium-ion batteries have an on-board UVP (under voltage protection) that disconnects the battery to avoid it becoming too deeply discharged. This prohibits the CTEK charger from detecting that there’s a battery connected. To bypass this, the battery charger needs to open the UVP. By pressing the RESET button for 10 seconds, the charger opens the UVP. During this process, the charging STEP 7 is lit. Once the UVP has been opened and the battery is ready to be charged, the charger automatically starts the charging cycle."
Thoughts relative to your disabled-by-UVP Cayenne? Does your Lithium US offer this feature? I ask because I may buy one of these strictly to keep around in the event the battery decides to discharge enough that UVP engages. Seems like cheap insurance against a lot of damned potential hassle. Even if the UVP override doesn't work, a previous poster's suggestion to hook the thing directly to the battery in the footwell seems like it would bypass UVP entirely.
"BATTERIES WITH UNDER VOLTAGE PROTECTION: Some Lithium-ion batteries have an on-board UVP (under voltage protection) that disconnects the battery to avoid it becoming too deeply discharged. This prohibits the CTEK charger from detecting that there’s a battery connected. To bypass this, the battery charger needs to open the UVP. By pressing the RESET button for 10 seconds, the charger opens the UVP. During this process, the charging STEP 7 is lit. Once the UVP has been opened and the battery is ready to be charged, the charger automatically starts the charging cycle."
Thoughts relative to your disabled-by-UVP Cayenne? Does your Lithium US offer this feature? I ask because I may buy one of these strictly to keep around in the event the battery decides to discharge enough that UVP engages. Seems like cheap insurance against a lot of damned potential hassle. Even if the UVP override doesn't work, a previous poster's suggestion to hook the thing directly to the battery in the footwell seems like it would bypass UVP entirely.
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Heegoogoo1 (12-27-2020)
02-23-2019, 02:26 PM
#32
Instructor
Thanks for the detailed reply, BCA01. I took a look at the CTEK Lithium XS manual (https://www.ctek.com/storage/ma/00a7...nual-UK-EN.pdf). There is an interesting bit about overriding UVP on page 3 that reads as follows:
"BATTERIES WITH UNDER VOLTAGE PROTECTION: Some Lithium-ion batteries have an on-board UVP (under voltage protection) that disconnects the battery to avoid it becoming too deeply discharged. This prohibits the CTEK charger from detecting that there’s a battery connected. To bypass this, the battery charger needs to open the UVP. By pressing the RESET button for 10 seconds, the charger opens the UVP. During this process, the charging STEP 7 is lit. Once the UVP has been opened and the battery is ready to be charged, the charger automatically starts the charging cycle."
Thoughts relative to your disabled-by-UVP Cayenne? Does your Lithium US offer this feature? I ask because I may buy one of these strictly to keep around in the event the battery decides to discharge enough that UVP engages. Seems like cheap insurance against a lot of damned potential hassle. Even if the UVP override doesn't work, a previous poster's suggestion to hook the thing directly to the battery in the footwell seems like it would bypass UVP entirely.
"BATTERIES WITH UNDER VOLTAGE PROTECTION: Some Lithium-ion batteries have an on-board UVP (under voltage protection) that disconnects the battery to avoid it becoming too deeply discharged. This prohibits the CTEK charger from detecting that there’s a battery connected. To bypass this, the battery charger needs to open the UVP. By pressing the RESET button for 10 seconds, the charger opens the UVP. During this process, the charging STEP 7 is lit. Once the UVP has been opened and the battery is ready to be charged, the charger automatically starts the charging cycle."
Thoughts relative to your disabled-by-UVP Cayenne? Does your Lithium US offer this feature? I ask because I may buy one of these strictly to keep around in the event the battery decides to discharge enough that UVP engages. Seems like cheap insurance against a lot of damned potential hassle. Even if the UVP override doesn't work, a previous poster's suggestion to hook the thing directly to the battery in the footwell seems like it would bypass UVP entirely.
Yes, my charger has that exact same language and functionality and I couldn’t get it to work. Tried at least 5 times. Each time, light #7 would light up as described, then it would go off and light #1 would light up (trying to detect battery), and I thought maybe I was good to go. But then within 30 seconds the error light would come on. At that point, I was stuck. Tried pressing reset button multiple times...nothing. It just wouldn’t work. It seems to me that with the Cayenne, it needs to detect higher voltage for a longer time (via a jump vehicle or box) in order to reconnect. Once we’d jumped the car last night and I plugged in the charger, light #1 came on and then light #2 came on (indicating main charge step) almost immediately. I knew all was good at that point.
As a final update, when I woke up this morning, all 7 lights were lit up. This indicates a full charge and that the charger is in the float/maintenance stage. A beautiful sight to me!
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mark59 (04-22-2023)
02-24-2019, 11:02 AM
#33
Wow, guys. Thank you very much for this discussion. With a totally new design, we all need to figure these things out. For what I gather, the battery only came out of the UVP by the Porsche tech. What was the jump box exactly? Is it a Porsche special charger?
02-24-2019, 02:10 PM
#34
Burning Brakes
You’re welcome.
Yes, my charger has that exact same language and functionality and I couldn’t get it to work. Tried at least 5 times. Each time, light #7 would light up as described, then it would go off and light #1 would light up (trying to detect battery), and I thought maybe I was good to go. But then within 30 seconds the error light would come on. At that point, I was stuck. Tried pressing reset button multiple times...nothing. It just wouldn’t work. It seems to me that with the Cayenne, it needs to detect higher voltage for a longer time (via a jump vehicle or box) in order to reconnect. Once we’d jumped the car last night and I plugged in the charger, light #1 came on and then light #2 came on (indicating main charge step) almost immediately. I knew all was good at that point.
As a final update, when I woke up this morning, all 7 lights were lit up. This indicates a full charge and that the charger is in the float/maintenance stage. A beautiful sight to me!
That's great to read. Thanks for the update.
As an aside, do you think that, in an emergency no-start situation, directly connecting the charger to the battery would bypass UVP and get the thing going -- assuming UVP circuitry is outside the battery itself?
Just trying to learn and file away all I can about this thing. I've mentioned before it's my wife's DD, so there's an added element of protectionism involved here.
02-24-2019, 03:07 PM
#35
Burning Brakes
Tequipment charger
Question: Does anybody have experience with the Tequipment charger for these batteries? Expensive, but seems like the safest bet. Interestingly, the manual specifically mentions using the 12V socket.
http://content2.us.porsche.com/prod/...273&ac=product
http://content2.us.porsche.com/prod/...273&ac=product
02-24-2019, 03:43 PM
#36
Instructor
No, it was just a fully charged jump box that put out sufficient voltage. A jump start from a running vehicle would have worked also.
02-24-2019, 03:50 PM
#37
Instructor
As an aside, do you think that, in an emergency no-start situation, directly connecting the charger to the battery would bypass UVP and get the thing going -- assuming UVP circuitry is outside the battery itself?
Just trying to learn and file away all I can about this thing. I've mentioned before it's my wife's DD, so there's an added element of protectionism involved here.
Just trying to learn and file away all I can about this thing. I've mentioned before it's my wife's DD, so there's an added element of protectionism involved here.
Question: Does anybody have experience with the Tequipment charger for these batteries? Expensive, but seems like the safest bet. Interestingly, the manual specifically mentions using the 12V socket.
http://content2.us.porsche.com/prod/...273&ac=product
http://content2.us.porsche.com/prod/...273&ac=product
I do do plan to try mine out in the 12v socket sometime soon. Hopefully it will work as it does in my 911. All the Cayenne manual says about charging is to use the terminals under the hood.
02-24-2019, 04:54 PM
#39
02-24-2019, 05:54 PM
#40
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I am now dealing with a bigger problem. The car went into UVP (under voltage protection) mode as I was in the process of getting the CTEK Lithium charger hooked up. So the car is dead in the water....no power whatsoever. As a mechanism to protect the battery, the car disconnects itself from the battery when voltage reaches a certain level and doesn't reconnect until it sees sufficient voltage for some time. The manual says anywhere from immediately upon attaching a jump vehicle to 10 minutes from hooking up a charger/power supply. My CTEK supposedly has a way of overcoming this UVP but I tried it several times to no avail. Luckily, I have a good client advisor who lives not too far from me and he is coming by my house with a jump box after work this evening, which should get me back up and running. I went over the whole series of events with the shop foreman on the phone a few minutes ago and he said that'll do it. But he also said that what they were taught is that the battery won't reconnect until it sees sufficient voltage for 30 minutes.
He made the comment "I'm not sure why they had to make something so simple so complicated" and I agree. So my advice to any of you who might see a low battery warning on the PCM is to start your vehicle and drive it immediately! I'll post an update on how this turns out...
He made the comment "I'm not sure why they had to make something so simple so complicated" and I agree. So my advice to any of you who might see a low battery warning on the PCM is to start your vehicle and drive it immediately! I'll post an update on how this turns out...
1- That is super unfortunate that the Cayenne went dead for you BCA... I can tell you in general why the Porsche Lithium Battery won't come out of the SLEEP MODE (protection mode) quickly even when you attach a CTEK... This is because, in general, the Battery Management system in the Battery itself, and additionally the Cheyenne wants to see a solid 12v ~12.5v BEFORE it will allow the battery or Car to wake up. How this works is the Cars system also wants to see it has enough Power to engage the ECU and other functions of the Vehicle BEFORE it will let it start the vehicle. So if it is seeing an over-dishcarged "state of Charge" (soc) then it will wait until it the battery reaches the magic number Porsche (and whoever makes that battery) wants to see, as I said usually between 12 and 12.5v minimum, then it will alllow the system to move forward with fully waking up and allow a start attempt.
So my thoughts on this are that your CTEK Charger is NOT putting out sufficient Amperage/Current at a high enough voltage to make the Car think it is at a solid voltage (state of charge) and can come out of SLEEP MODE. CTEKS are usually rated at 4 Amps... but when the battery is in an over-discharged state, then the CTEK Charger will be offering a LOWER voltage, and current to massage the Lithium Battery back up to a certain voltage (say 11.5v) at which point it will start charging at higher voltages and with more current. So until this point the Car thinks its still over discharged and will wait until the battery is sufficiently charged before allowing the start. If you have this problem again you might want to look at some Optimate Chargers which offer a higher Current charging on some of there models, and I think their latest has a boost assist...
Additionally, I think you can overcome this with a mini-jump Starter such as our MICRO-START (https://shop.antigravitybatteries.com/productline/micro-starts/ product... because I think if you supply a solid 12v to your existing battery in the Cayenne the system should let it start. I can't imagine you have to wait 30 minutes for they system to recognize a solid 12v. I think the tech might have been told this since it would take about 30 mins for a Dead Lithium Battery to get up to a sufficient voltage that the car will allow the start. But with a connected solid 12v I think the Car will immediately think the battery is sufficiently charged and allow the Start attempt. Interestingly we just got our latest cables for a Harness kit we are making for Porsches that allow you to connect our MICRO-START product to a Porsche Battery (or any car actually) to energize it and be able to open the Frunk or Jump Start the Car... but seeing as you have had this problem in your Brand New Cayenne it might be worth a look to work in your circumstance. Basically its a wiring harness that allows you to connect your MICRO-START directly to the Battery itself then allows you to just plug the MICRO-START onto this harness... thus energizing the car with the MICRO-START. So the car then thinks the Battery is charged... the Battery itself should be brought our of sleep mode also by this connection and you should be able the then start the car. Basically you just connect our Harness to your Battery, then if you ever have a dead Battery you plug our MICRO-START to this harness (no -clamps needed) and ENERGIZE your entire Car. It was originally designed for Motorcyclists so they did not have to remove the seat to access jump start the Motorcycle.. but the Car guys started buying them so they did not have to carry the clamps to jump start using the MICRO-START, you just plug it in. So this might be a way for a Cayenne user to prevent this problem from occurring in the future. And since you Battery is IN the Car you can probably just use our Short Harness kit rather than the longer one we are just coming out with. Here is the Link to look at what I'm talking . https://shop.antigravitybatteries.co...-harness-xp10/
2- Do you know exactly how long you left the Cayenne before the battery was over-discharged? From your statements it appears it was not very long.... so you want to really monitor that over the next few weeks and perform some voltage readings. This will give you some hard data on what to expect from that battery. At 60 Amp Hours you should , in theory, be getting way over a month even in a Car with a somewhat heavy parasitic draw. ON the 991s and forward the Battery Managing on the Porsche is really good and 30Ah can easily get 7 weeks provided you don't have aftermarket accessories. Also check if you have aftermarket chargers, or anything plugged in.... those will draw down batteries quickly because most aftermarket companies making accessories don't care about the draw these products create on your system.
3- To address some other stuff I read. Lithium-Ion is an umbrella term for ANY Lithium "re-chargeable" battery chemistry.... so you can call any Lithium-Ion Battery that is rechargeable a Lithium-Ion battery though most associate it with Lithium Polymer/Lithium Cobalt as found in most of the electronics like phones and tablets.... The Car Batteries are definitely Lithium-Iron Phosphate (lifepo4) because it operates in a similar voltage range as lead acid batteries and is compatible with automotive charging system, and is more stable than some other formats. But you don't want to use a Lead/Acid Charger on them, but in the Car they are fine being charged by the Cars system.
4- Last all we do is Lithium-Ion products and are well aware of the issues like this occurring in Street Cars, so our Antigravity Batteries actually have a WIRELESS BUILT-IN Jump Starting feature that eliminates this exact issues. For example if you over-discharge you Car with our Battery.... you simply press the Wireless Remote Keyfob.... our battery wakes up and supplies a full 13.2v to the Car and you Start your Car and drive away... Not saying you should replace your Lithium with ours.... I don't know how Porsche designed that new system in the Cheyenne, I'm just promoting a bit there since not everybody know about how advanced we have taken Lithium-Ion Starting Batteries.
Last edited by Antigravity; 02-24-2019 at 06:15 PM.
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Heegoogoo1 (12-27-2020)
02-24-2019, 08:48 PM
#41
I posted earlier about my 2019 Cayenne going offline. I have learned some very valuable information from this thread. Porsche seems to say that these situations do not have the same solutions. My car has now been flat bedded to the dealers twice! I took delivery 12/17 and it has been unusable to me for a total of 28 days so far.
Using the jump box and charger in both failures even after Porsche said to leave the boxes on for 15 minutes, did not reconnect the battery. In both instances the gateway located under the drivers seat had to be reset. The battery was not discharged and the car started immediately.
Porsche now says that they have found a software error causing this situation. They are testing the fix and if all goes well they plan to release an update in about THREE MORE WEEKS! My car is impounded at the dealers.
I never received a warning message on my PCM. My car just ran fine one day and then would not start the next.
If any other owners have any additional information on this situation , please share it with those of us who may be experiencing this failure.
Thanks to everyone!
Using the jump box and charger in both failures even after Porsche said to leave the boxes on for 15 minutes, did not reconnect the battery. In both instances the gateway located under the drivers seat had to be reset. The battery was not discharged and the car started immediately.
Porsche now says that they have found a software error causing this situation. They are testing the fix and if all goes well they plan to release an update in about THREE MORE WEEKS! My car is impounded at the dealers.
I never received a warning message on my PCM. My car just ran fine one day and then would not start the next.
If any other owners have any additional information on this situation , please share it with those of us who may be experiencing this failure.
Thanks to everyone!
02-24-2019, 11:44 PM
#42
Burning Brakes
LMB, sorry to read about your second no-start. Please keep us updated. I hope Porsche follows through and releases a firmware / software fix soon, as your dealer mentioned.
I am curious: Did you disconnect the battery entirely as I did to cure my PCM issue? I’m guessing yes, with poor results.
I am curious: Did you disconnect the battery entirely as I did to cure my PCM issue? I’m guessing yes, with poor results.
02-25-2019, 12:46 AM
#43
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I posted earlier about my 2019 Cayenne going offline. I have learned some very valuable information from this thread. Porsche seems to say that these situations do not have the same solutions. My car has now been flat bedded to the dealers twice! I took delivery 12/17 and it has been unusable to me for a total of 28 days so far.
Using the jump box and charger in both failures even after Porsche said to leave the boxes on for 15 minutes, did not reconnect the battery. In both instances the gateway located under the drivers seat had to be reset. The battery was not discharged and the car started immediately.
Porsche now says that they have found a software error causing this situation. They are testing the fix and if all goes well they plan to release an update in about THREE MORE WEEKS! My car is impounded at the dealers.
I never received a warning message on my PCM. My car just ran fine one day and then would not start the next.
If any other owners have any additional information on this situation , please share it with those of us who may be experiencing this failure.
Thanks to everyone!
Using the jump box and charger in both failures even after Porsche said to leave the boxes on for 15 minutes, did not reconnect the battery. In both instances the gateway located under the drivers seat had to be reset. The battery was not discharged and the car started immediately.
Porsche now says that they have found a software error causing this situation. They are testing the fix and if all goes well they plan to release an update in about THREE MORE WEEKS! My car is impounded at the dealers.
I never received a warning message on my PCM. My car just ran fine one day and then would not start the next.
If any other owners have any additional information on this situation , please share it with those of us who may be experiencing this failure.
Thanks to everyone!
But was the Lithium Battery DEAD when these issues occurred? Because that would give an indication if the Lithium Battery might be the original culprit... for example if it gets over-discharged it would then cause the Vehicles system to freak out too.... But if the Lithium battery was still holding a good voltage when the Car goes offline, then that would indicate it was the Cars System that was causing the shut down. Were you able to check the voltage at the Battery when your Car went offline? Was the battery still providing Typical (13.2v) at the Terminals, or was the vehicle dead and battery alive, which would indicate a Vehicle issue rather than a Battery issue.
Also since some of you have this problem you might want to check voltage at the Battery if your car is not starting, but additionally check and monitor the battery voltage to see what is going on in terms of the discharge, and IF fast over-discharge is cause the Battery to turn off you might want to keep that Car on the Charger much more often which would suck.
02-25-2019, 08:47 AM
#44
I did not go straight to the battery and disconnect because I discussed that with the service tech and he said that it still would not have gone online because the gateway would have still needed resetting (although that may have caused the gateway to reset?). Secondly, I did not want to try it, fail, and loose what setup I had.
I am getting well experienced in transport for 2019 Cayennes. I am wondering if the move to lithium batteries was a good one as it seems they may be very sensitive and quick to go offline. It seems to me the online voltage threshold needs to be lowered. Both my Macan and Cayenne read in the high 11 volts when I turn on ignition. I used to not care or display voltage - now it is my prime concentration.
My battery did not have to be recharged in either failure.
I hope Porsche is right about their fix. We never know until it is installed and proven.
Just a little change of subject: Have you seen an Audi 2019 Q8? One was in front of me several days ago, I was surprised, astonished, angry, etc., to say the least.
I am getting well experienced in transport for 2019 Cayennes. I am wondering if the move to lithium batteries was a good one as it seems they may be very sensitive and quick to go offline. It seems to me the online voltage threshold needs to be lowered. Both my Macan and Cayenne read in the high 11 volts when I turn on ignition. I used to not care or display voltage - now it is my prime concentration.
My battery did not have to be recharged in either failure.
I hope Porsche is right about their fix. We never know until it is installed and proven.
Just a little change of subject: Have you seen an Audi 2019 Q8? One was in front of me several days ago, I was surprised, astonished, angry, etc., to say the least.
02-25-2019, 08:51 AM
#45
I did not go straight to the battery and disconnect because I discussed that with the service tech and he said that it still would not have gone online because the gateway would have still needed resetting (although that may have caused the gateway to reset?). Secondly, I did not want to try it, fail, and loose what setup I had.
I am getting well experienced in transport for 2019 Cayennes. I am wondering if the move to lithium batteries was a good one as it seems they may be very sensitive and quick to go offline. It seems to me the online voltage threshold needs to be lowered. Both my Macan and Cayenne read in the high 11 volts when I turn on ignition. I used to not care or display voltage - now it is my prime concentration.
My battery did not have to be recharged in either failure.
I hope Porsche is right about their fix. We never know until it is installed and proven.
Just a little change of subject: Have you seen an Audi 2019 Q8? One was in front of me several days ago, I was surprised, astonished, angry, etc., to say the least.
I am getting well experienced in transport for 2019 Cayennes. I am wondering if the move to lithium batteries was a good one as it seems they may be very sensitive and quick to go offline. It seems to me the online voltage threshold needs to be lowered. Both my Macan and Cayenne read in the high 11 volts when I turn on ignition. I used to not care or display voltage - now it is my prime concentration.
My battery did not have to be recharged in either failure.
I hope Porsche is right about their fix. We never know until it is installed and proven.
Just a little change of subject: Have you seen an Audi 2019 Q8? One was in front of me several days ago, I was surprised, astonished, angry, etc., to say the least.