2019 Cayenne Battery
#17
Lithium batteries are not comparable to lead-acid batteries of the same volume in several ways:
1. They have almost no self-discharge. So a parked car with an efficient shut-down system can start months later. My GT3 starts fine after 2 months parked with 30Ah Li battery and no tender. I've done it by mistake once and out of necessity another time and both times the battery started the car fine and had solid voltage.
2. They can discharge almost to empty without getting "weaker" or being damaged in contrast to lead-acid batteries that give their rated voltage and amps only when fully charged. Half discharged lead acid battery is noticeably worse in both voltage and power. And going much beyond half reduces the lifetime of the battery. That's why lead-acid batteries need to be such an overkill always. So 60 Ah lithium battery can give you well over 50Ah before it starts getting weaker, which is comparable to a much larger capacity lead-acid battery.
3. Lithium batteries have much higher starting current for their volume, something like 3x+, so even a 60Ah lithium battery on its last % of charge would still give more current than a typical lead-acid battery.
4. Lithium batteries can sustain significantly more cycles than lead-acid before starting to lose capacity and starting current.
So I would not worry about 60Ah Li battery being insufficient or less robust than a 120Ah lead-acid battery under normal usage - it's same or better.
1. They have almost no self-discharge. So a parked car with an efficient shut-down system can start months later. My GT3 starts fine after 2 months parked with 30Ah Li battery and no tender. I've done it by mistake once and out of necessity another time and both times the battery started the car fine and had solid voltage.
2. They can discharge almost to empty without getting "weaker" or being damaged in contrast to lead-acid batteries that give their rated voltage and amps only when fully charged. Half discharged lead acid battery is noticeably worse in both voltage and power. And going much beyond half reduces the lifetime of the battery. That's why lead-acid batteries need to be such an overkill always. So 60 Ah lithium battery can give you well over 50Ah before it starts getting weaker, which is comparable to a much larger capacity lead-acid battery.
3. Lithium batteries have much higher starting current for their volume, something like 3x+, so even a 60Ah lithium battery on its last % of charge would still give more current than a typical lead-acid battery.
4. Lithium batteries can sustain significantly more cycles than lead-acid before starting to lose capacity and starting current.
So I would not worry about 60Ah Li battery being insufficient or less robust than a 120Ah lead-acid battery under normal usage - it's same or better.
But, and this is a big but. The antigravity thread above is for replacement Litihium Ion batteries. I am not sure if the GT3 is coming with that. There may be a huge liability issue (I hate to bring that up), if you replace a Lead Acid with a Lithium Ion, and it catches on fire! For us, the 9Y0 members, the battery is a Lithium Iron Phosphate which is safer and comes standard. I do not think I would jump to replace a Lead Acid with a Lithium Ion.
Now I am not sure if the use case is the same for a Lithium Ion vs Lithium Iron Phospahte.
#18
Advanced
They are actually both Li-Ion batteries. The one we normally call "Li-Ion" is actually Li-Ion Cobalt. The other is Li-Ion Iron Phosphate. Same Lithium, just different battery chemistries. There are other Lithium battery chemistries as well, most of which are far safer than the original Li-Ion Cobalt that is in your PC and IPhone (and can blow-up and burn). So the first rule is, never get a Li-Ion Cobalt battery for use in a vehicle. The second rule is, what's the use? A starting battery for an ICE can be Iron Phosphate, because it has high energy density. However, it doesn't have high enough power density to push a 5,000 lb SUV up to 85 mph and hold it there, so a different chemistry has to be used for the E-Hybrid. The one Porsche uses is essentially as safe as Iron Phosphate, but does have to be cooled, or it can be damaged and loose its capacity to be charged.
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Schnell 911 (01-13-2023)
#19
They are actually both Li-Ion batteries. The one we normally call "Li-Ion" is actually Li-Ion Cobalt. The other is Li-Ion Iron Phosphate. Same Lithium, just different battery chemistries. There are other Lithium battery chemistries as well, most of which are far safer than the original Li-Ion Cobalt that is in your PC and IPhone (and can blow-up and burn). So the first rule is, never get a Li-Ion Cobalt battery for use in a vehicle. The second rule is, what's the use? A starting battery for an ICE can be Iron Phosphate, because it has high energy density. However, it doesn't have high enough power density to push a 5,000 lb SUV up to 85 mph and hold it there, so a different chemistry has to be used for the E-Hybrid. The one Porsche uses is essentially as safe as Iron Phosphate, but does have to be cooled, or it can be damaged and loose its capacity to be charged.
#20
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
It is Lithium Iron Phosphate.
#21
#22
Instructor
Anyone know if the center console 12v socket will work to charge? My battery is apparently very low as I got a warning on the PCM last night (it sat at port for a while and on dealer lot for a few weeks, which made for a helluva paint decon process as well as a low battery), so I ordered the CTEK lithium charger and it will arrive tomorrow. All I see in the manual is mention of the charging terminals under the hood but I’m really hoping that the 12v socket will work as it does in my 911. If anyone has tried it, I’d love to know how it went. If not, I’ll post about my experience soon.
#23
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by BCA01
Anyone know if the center console 12v socket will work to charge? My battery is apparently very low as I got a warning on the PCM last night (it sat at port for a while and on dealer lot for a few weeks, which made for a helluva paint decon process as well as a low battery), so I ordered the CTEK lithium charger and it will arrive tomorrow. All I see in the manual is mention of the charging terminals under the hood but I’m really hoping that the 12v socket will work as it does in my 911. If anyone has tried it, I’d love to know how it went. If not, I’ll post about my experience soon.
#24
Originally Posted by BCA01
Anyone know if the center console 12v socket will work to charge? My battery is apparently very low as I got a warning on the PCM last night (it sat at port for a while and on dealer lot for a few weeks, which made for a helluva paint decon process as well as a low battery), so I ordered the CTEK lithium charger and it will arrive tomorrow. All I see in the manual is mention of the charging terminals under the hood but I’m really hoping that the 12v socket will work as it does in my 911. If anyone has tried it, I’d love to know how it went. If not, I’ll post about my experience soon.
#25
Instructor
I am now dealing with a bigger problem. The car went into UVP (under voltage protection) mode as I was in the process of getting the CTEK Lithium charger hooked up. So the car is dead in the water....no power whatsoever. As a mechanism to protect the battery, the car disconnects itself from the battery when voltage reaches a certain level and doesn't reconnect until it sees sufficient voltage for some time. The manual says anywhere from immediately upon attaching a jump vehicle to 10 minutes from hooking up a charger/power supply. My CTEK supposedly has a way of overcoming this UVP but I tried it several times to no avail. Luckily, I have a good client advisor who lives not too far from me and he is coming by my house with a jump box after work this evening, which should get me back up and running. I went over the whole series of events with the shop foreman on the phone a few minutes ago and he said that'll do it. But he also said that what they were taught is that the battery won't reconnect until it sees sufficient voltage for 30 minutes. So I guess we will see....he said to give it at least 10 minutes connected to jump box before attempting to start engine even though it should start right away. The goal apparently is to get the battery to reconnect itself before starting engine.
He made the comment "I'm not sure why they had to make something so simple so complicated" and I agree. So my advice to any of you who might see a low battery warning on the PCM is to start your vehicle and drive it immediately! I'll post an update on how this turns out...
He made the comment "I'm not sure why they had to make something so simple so complicated" and I agree. So my advice to any of you who might see a low battery warning on the PCM is to start your vehicle and drive it immediately! I'll post an update on how this turns out...
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Heegoogoo1 (12-27-2020)
#26
Keep us posted on this. Also, let me know which CTEK charger you bought and if it works.
#27
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by BCA01
So my advice to any of you who might see a low battery warning on the PCM is to start your vehicle and drive it immediately! I'll post an update on how this turns out...
BTW when driving to charge the battery make sure you drive for at least an hour. One time I discharged my battery and then after a jump drove it for 20 minutes. Then it still wouldn't start. Not enough charge. Fortunately the CTEK got it back above the threshold.
#28
Instructor
Update: All seems well now. Once we attached the jump box to clamps under the hood, we waited a little over 10 minutes per advice of the shop foreman. After that, I opened driver door, electronics came on and it started right up. We let it idle for a few minutes and then disconnected jump box. Then we turned engine off, I hooked up the CTEK, and it immediately went to charging stage 2 (max current bulk charging), which lasts up to 10 hrs. This was totally different than what it did last night when it wouldn’t recognize the battery at all. Once it passes stage 2, it moves to stage 3 which is absorption via declining current and can last up to 30 hrs.
The CTEK I bought is the Lithium US. $80 on Amazon and I didn’t consider other options because I wanted it quickly. The one on the CTEK website now is the Lithium XS and it appears to have a slightly higher max amperage. I’m not sure what difference that would make, and I have no idea if it would have made a difference in having the charger overcome the UVP mode as my charger wouldn’t do. I doubt it.
I did consider attaching directly to battery but not until this morning. This occurred to me as I was literally losing sleep over this last night because it was the one thing I didn’t try. Never tried it. The manual didn’t say to do that but it also didn’t say not to do it. By the time I considered that, my dealer was committed to coming to my house to fix it, so I just went with their recommendations.
My dealer is Porsche North Houston. As has been said on this forum by many, they are one of a handful of “good guy” dealers in the USA and deserve all the business they can get. My salesperson/client advisor/brand ambassador is excellent and went above and beyond with a house call to solve this problem when he could have easily told me to call roadside assistance. I was referred to him by a friend of mine who is a great client of his, I’ve purchased two vehicles from him in the last 21 months, and I couldn’t recommend him enough. PM if you’d like his name and I’d be happy to provide.
Edit: I’m having issues multi-quoting but my responses are addressed to the ones above. I’ll try to figure that out...
The CTEK I bought is the Lithium US. $80 on Amazon and I didn’t consider other options because I wanted it quickly. The one on the CTEK website now is the Lithium XS and it appears to have a slightly higher max amperage. I’m not sure what difference that would make, and I have no idea if it would have made a difference in having the charger overcome the UVP mode as my charger wouldn’t do. I doubt it.
I did consider attaching directly to battery but not until this morning. This occurred to me as I was literally losing sleep over this last night because it was the one thing I didn’t try. Never tried it. The manual didn’t say to do that but it also didn’t say not to do it. By the time I considered that, my dealer was committed to coming to my house to fix it, so I just went with their recommendations.
My dealer is Porsche North Houston. As has been said on this forum by many, they are one of a handful of “good guy” dealers in the USA and deserve all the business they can get. My salesperson/client advisor/brand ambassador is excellent and went above and beyond with a house call to solve this problem when he could have easily told me to call roadside assistance. I was referred to him by a friend of mine who is a great client of his, I’ve purchased two vehicles from him in the last 21 months, and I couldn’t recommend him enough. PM if you’d like his name and I’d be happy to provide.
Edit: I’m having issues multi-quoting but my responses are addressed to the ones above. I’ll try to figure that out...
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Heegoogoo1 (12-27-2020)
#29
Burning Brakes
BCA01, can you describe what you did with your CTEK initally that killed your battery charge? I looked at the CTEK website as you mentioned. Their products look good. But I'm confused as to how you ended up in UVP mode just by hooking up the CTEK.
I guess the bigger question is this: If you can so easily disable your car from starting using the CTEK; and in doing so your car requires a "jump box" to get it going again; would you recommend the CTEK in the first place?
I guess the bigger question is this: If you can so easily disable your car from starting using the CTEK; and in doing so your car requires a "jump box" to get it going again; would you recommend the CTEK in the first place?
#30
Instructor
BCA01, can you describe what you did with your CTEK initally that killed your battery charge? I looked at the CTEK website as you mentioned. Their products look good. But I'm confused as to how you ended up in UVP mode just by hooking up the CTEK.
I guess the bigger question is this: If you can so easily disable your car from starting using the CTEK; and in doing so your car requires a "jump box" to get it going again; would you recommend the CTEK in the first place?
I guess the bigger question is this: If you can so easily disable your car from starting using the CTEK; and in doing so your car requires a "jump box" to get it going again; would you recommend the CTEK in the first place?
The only issue with the CTEK was that its supposed ability to overcome/override this UVP mode did not work on my Cayenne. I’m not sure if that was an issue with my charger or with the Cayenne computer/software. The tech I spoke to this morning said that the batteries are standard but the way Porsche writes the software to control them is all their own. Also of note is that I have the CTEK Lithium US. There appears to be a newer model called the XS. I have no idea if that model would be successful at overcoming the UVP on the Cayenne. I don’t anticipate ever getting to that point again but if I do, or if anyone else does, a regular jump start is the easiest solution to get running again and then you can charge or drive to get battery back to happy.
Yes, as of now, I would definitely recommend the CTEK. It immediately connected and began charging as designed when hooked up this evening. I’ll reply in a day or two if something goes awry but I don’t anticipate any further issues. I’ve also been extremely happy with my CTEK multi US 7002 for the past 2 yrs on my 911. It’s plugged in to that at all times when in my garage and never an issue.