The Toureg Problem
08-17-2013, 11:35 AM
#46
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Ahh. I remembered seeing the post, but had forgotten that it was you that said it. The point still stands though 
I "knew" going into the AutoX that it was built to be able to do that stuff, but (as with most) I didn't really believe it. I was floored by what it can do and I don't have any of the performance options on it. If I was going to seriously compete with one I would want those options as well as bigger brakes and lower profile tires (that alone would have made the biggest difference for me), but I just did it to get a good understanding of what it can do with me behind the wheel.
The Cayenne offers two suspension options. Steel (default) and Air. The air smoothes out the ride and also allows you to change the height (including lowering in sport mode). Additionally (except on the diesel) there is a PDCC option which allows you to dynamically adjust the chassis stiffness (e.g. reduce body roll). If you read around about "must have" options you'll see a lot of people saying that Air and PDCC are absolute musts, but while I agree they can make a big difference the base setup is quite capable on it's own.
Edit: Three! They offer three options! I always forget PASM (I associate it with Air, but it is separate).
I "knew" going into the AutoX that it was built to be able to do that stuff, but (as with most) I didn't really believe it. I was floored by what it can do and I don't have any of the performance options on it. If I was going to seriously compete with one I would want those options as well as bigger brakes and lower profile tires (that alone would have made the biggest difference for me), but I just did it to get a good understanding of what it can do with me behind the wheel.
The Cayenne offers two suspension options. Steel (default) and Air. The air smoothes out the ride and also allows you to change the height (including lowering in sport mode). Additionally (except on the diesel) there is a PDCC option which allows you to dynamically adjust the chassis stiffness (e.g. reduce body roll). If you read around about "must have" options you'll see a lot of people saying that Air and PDCC are absolute musts, but while I agree they can make a big difference the base setup is quite capable on it's own.
Edit: Three! They offer three options! I always forget PASM (I associate it with Air, but it is separate).
She does understand and lusts for performance so maybe this will change her POV on the VW and the P being badge engineered twins.
08-17-2013, 11:59 AM
#47
Rennlist Member
I'm not sure your fears of smell are rational. Unless there is an actual problem with the emission equipment.. The diesel particulate filter and Ad Blue should do their job.
08-17-2013, 12:06 PM
#48
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We tentatively decided our next P-car would be a Cayenne. Since the idea is that this would be my wife's DD, she went off to do her research on model, year and specifics she'd like.
Her research (beats me her sources) evaluated to her that the VW Toureg is the functional equivalent of the 6 cylinder Cayenne in all regards. She prefers the ergonomics of the VW too.
I understood that the VW and Porsche shared a good deal more than just platform, but thought the P had majorly tweaked suspension and perhaps some other changes aside from a P badge and a re-done dash.
I am sure that the differences between these vehicles has been evaluated to pieces by now so rather than ask the Cayenne Collective to re-hash this, can the Collective please point me to to such an evaluation?
Thanks.
Her research (beats me her sources) evaluated to her that the VW Toureg is the functional equivalent of the 6 cylinder Cayenne in all regards. She prefers the ergonomics of the VW too.
I understood that the VW and Porsche shared a good deal more than just platform, but thought the P had majorly tweaked suspension and perhaps some other changes aside from a P badge and a re-done dash.
I am sure that the differences between these vehicles has been evaluated to pieces by now so rather than ask the Cayenne Collective to re-hash this, can the Collective please point me to to such an evaluation?
Thanks.
1) none of us on the board ever take either one to its limits. Therefore the limit you need is the deciding factor.
2) I chose the VW with the V8 over the cayenne S because of a few factors. The most significant was the 50-100% for the P in the used market. My V8 treg pulls my 6000 lb boat on the highway quite nicely.
3) The Treg has all the options that the P car did. parking sensors keyless entry, airbag suspension (which I would not live without anymore). Also all those systems (keyless entry etc) are the same on both.
4) The differences are suspension (springs ,roll bars and brakes) and if I am not mistaken the Porsche does not have the transfer case for low 4 (at least in early models)
5) A Twin turbo is the only P version I would consider. 450hp. Ya baby! Other than that the VW works better.
6) While the seats in the P are better, they are not a magnitude significantly better. I do 4 hour stints in the treg and the seats are comfortable.
i looked briefly at a Toureg before buying a Cayenne CPO.
they certainly share A LOT but there are some small differences:
P - lighter, firmer ride, bigger brakes, about 20hp more
V - has more cargo space, a lot more standard equipment, cost less, 2yr/24k of maintenance included, bigger dealer network.
Frankly, if i needed to choose b/w the 2 today, its would be the Toureg R line in the low $50's vs the Cayenne at >$70k.
they certainly share A LOT but there are some small differences:
P - lighter, firmer ride, bigger brakes, about 20hp more
V - has more cargo space, a lot more standard equipment, cost less, 2yr/24k of maintenance included, bigger dealer network.
Frankly, if i needed to choose b/w the 2 today, its would be the Toureg R line in the low $50's vs the Cayenne at >$70k.
My wife prefers the dash layout in the V which has her swaying toward that. Does firmer ride mean better handling?
Something which impressed me a bit back about the P was we attended an autocross and one of the competitors was a Cayenne. He did well too. I thought at that time that this is my sort of SUV.
Something which impressed me a bit back about the P was we attended an autocross and one of the competitors was a Cayenne. He did well too. I thought at that time that this is my sort of SUV.
Agrah wargah. My wife sent me here to gain info to assist in her decision. This is not wife vs d'dad but wife wanting to know if the premium for the P is more than just badge engineering.
I am not trying to talk her into anything. She's perfectly capable of deciding what her ride should be and I have no dog in that fight. I'd be ok with anything she chooses.
I am not trying to talk her into anything. She's perfectly capable of deciding what her ride should be and I have no dog in that fight. I'd be ok with anything she chooses.
Thanks. Let me explain two things. First, I was the guy at the autocross and the Cayenne did beat some of the 911's. That originally got my attention. Second, I asked so when we personally inspect the two, I wanted to know things to look for.
You mention steel suspension which implies to me that the P has an alloy one which reduces unsprung and reciprocating mass. Is that true? Is this called sport suspension or what?
My original take was that the P was the same unibody and shell but that most other elements had been changed. My wife said her research indicated that wasn't so but that they were different only in non-performance elements. I will pay for performance and refinement, but not for badge engineering so your post's specifics about the elements of change is quite informative and pretty much unique to this thread. Perhaps you saw me being told those things over and over, but I missed them.
I hope we get one and if it's the P, I plan on being the first Porsche to go over Engineer's Pass in CO. Well, I think I'd be the first but probably not.
You mention steel suspension which implies to me that the P has an alloy one which reduces unsprung and reciprocating mass. Is that true? Is this called sport suspension or what?
My original take was that the P was the same unibody and shell but that most other elements had been changed. My wife said her research indicated that wasn't so but that they were different only in non-performance elements. I will pay for performance and refinement, but not for badge engineering so your post's specifics about the elements of change is quite informative and pretty much unique to this thread. Perhaps you saw me being told those things over and over, but I missed them.
I hope we get one and if it's the P, I plan on being the first Porsche to go over Engineer's Pass in CO. Well, I think I'd be the first but probably not.
I suspect PDCC does not affect the chassis per se but the roll axis control, but maybe I'm wrong. Your posts have provided me a good deal of info I'll pass on to my wife for her decision. Apparently her research missed roughly 100% of what's been in your posts and the other technical posts in this thread.
She does understand and lusts for performance so maybe this will change her POV on the VW and the P being badge engineered twins.
She does understand and lusts for performance so maybe this will change her POV on the VW and the P being badge engineered twins.
08-17-2013, 12:08 PM
#49
Team Owner
Thread Starter
I don't see how it can be my imagination. I am riding along and smell the stink and then sooner or later catch up to the source and it's always a diesel. Now for sure, maybe I encounter diesels which don't smell so I don't detect them, but I sure do encounter plenty which disgust me.
Where I am, the air quality inspections only cover petrol engines so a diesel can go from clean to beyond foul with no penalty.
08-17-2013, 12:14 PM
#50
Only time will tell if they got it right this time or if we too will have soot problems.
08-17-2013, 12:26 PM
#51
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Here is my take on the whole P vs V deal
1) none of us on the board ever take either one to its limits. Therefore the limit you need is the deciding factor.
2) I chose the VW with the V8 over the cayenne S because of a few factors. The most significant was the 50-100% for the P in the used market. My V8 treg pulls my 6000 lb boat on the highway quite nicely.
3) The Treg has all the options that the P car did. parking sensors keyless entry, airbag suspension (which I would not live without anymore). Also all those systems (keyless entry etc) are the same on both.
4) The differences are suspension (springs ,roll bars and brakes) and if I am not mistaken the Porsche does not have the transfer case for low 4 (at least in early models)
5) A Twin turbo is the only P version I would consider. 450hp. Ya baby! Other than that the VW works better.
6) While the seats in the P are better, they are not a magnitude significantly better. I do 4 hour stints in the treg and the seats are comfortable.
+1 The cost premium is not worth the badge IMHO
With airbag suspension and the sport setting on the VW you would be surprised at what it can do too....
I like the dash in my Treg too. Keep in mind there is a HUGE difference between a base model and a loaded model. If buying used make sure you have those options you want. That will take a little longer to find.
My 04 treg has aluminum suspension
Unless you get the turbo, the differences in performance will be negligible. This is the reason I settled on the Treg.
1) none of us on the board ever take either one to its limits. Therefore the limit you need is the deciding factor.
2) I chose the VW with the V8 over the cayenne S because of a few factors. The most significant was the 50-100% for the P in the used market. My V8 treg pulls my 6000 lb boat on the highway quite nicely.
3) The Treg has all the options that the P car did. parking sensors keyless entry, airbag suspension (which I would not live without anymore). Also all those systems (keyless entry etc) are the same on both.
4) The differences are suspension (springs ,roll bars and brakes) and if I am not mistaken the Porsche does not have the transfer case for low 4 (at least in early models)
5) A Twin turbo is the only P version I would consider. 450hp. Ya baby! Other than that the VW works better.
6) While the seats in the P are better, they are not a magnitude significantly better. I do 4 hour stints in the treg and the seats are comfortable.
+1 The cost premium is not worth the badge IMHO
With airbag suspension and the sport setting on the VW you would be surprised at what it can do too....
I like the dash in my Treg too. Keep in mind there is a HUGE difference between a base model and a loaded model. If buying used make sure you have those options you want. That will take a little longer to find.
My 04 treg has aluminum suspension
Unless you get the turbo, the differences in performance will be negligible. This is the reason I settled on the Treg.
My wife likes the dash in the V more than in the P, but we've yet to drive either so I can't take a position on the seats or general fit and finish. Some here have said the fit and finish on the P is superior to the V which surprised me because for other models of V, I've thought the F&F were quite good. Again, something to look for.
I don't wish to autocross this SUV even if it can. For me, performance is probably well below the abilities of these cars from a speed view. I do have an unusual wish for a modern SUV and that it be capable of duty off road. I do NOT mean a real 4 x 4 course - I have my pickup for that - but rather being able to go where traction is ok but ground clearance is an issue for some passenger cars and where a conventional sports car like a 911 can't even consider going.
You see, we've evolved our dream car idea which is one we'd enjoy driving to some place in the mountains but then also enjoy touring around forest roads at our destinations. Sure, my truck can do the forest roads bit but it's sort of a drag on a freeway or other high speed drone. A 911 or Cayman or other similar are blasts to drive to the destination inn or B&B but then we have no way to get to the places we want to see and we're near.
Clearly the off road duty will be VERY mild because I'm not going to ruin the SUV by putting on aggressive tires like on my truck, but there are thousands of miles of roads in my region which only demand a high clearance and, in some cases, a low ratio transfer case (for going downhill) would be desirable.
It seems with the right options, either vehicle would do. My issue will be if I'd be content with the S / V8 or if my wife would stand the fuel usage of a turbo. I have to admit my weakness here that the lure of that turbo model has me dreaming of a have it all vehicle. I need to keep telling myself "It's for her, not you" but so far I am having a tough sale on myself.
08-17-2013, 03:15 PM
#52
Unless the owners have managed to disable the emission control equipment. There are supposed to be sensors that check to be sure the equipment is installed and functional or filled with AdBlue solution, but where there is a will, there is usually a way. There are numerous BMW and MB electronic diesels (X5d and ML 320d) that have gone way past 40K miles with no diesel smell, but those have the emission control systems in place and not tampered with.
08-17-2013, 03:18 PM
#53
Rennlist Member
Anyway the reason I would choose a porsche has nothing to do with powerplant. It would be handling, road feel and driver communication and better interior. If I had a diesel anything out of warranty I would likely be one of the people tempted to do a dpf delete and ecu update. But yeah if I was shopping new I would certainly be looking at and driving all 5 of the oil burners. I think the 2014 grand Cherokee diesel deserves a mention and sister ML bluetec.
08-17-2013, 03:19 PM
#54
Burning Brakes
Does a VW dealer give you a service loaner car?
08-18-2013, 01:34 PM
#56
I'm a happily married and a firm believer in "happy wife - happy life" philosophy.
On a recent Lufthansa flight ~ 2 weeks ago I read a comparison test of a bunch of German SUVs (I think it was BMW, MB, Porsche and VW) in "Auto Motor und Sport" or "AutoBild" (forgot which one). VW came in first and Porsche second - primarily because the testers felt the suspension (of all things) was better in the VW. Unfortunately I do not recall more about the test. As i do not have a subscription to either it is a bit difficult on line to get a link to the test. Perhaps one of you guys has seen this. (MY wife is actually now looking at either an A7 TDI or a Cayenne Diesel - who would have thought two different vehicles with identical engines.)
On a recent Lufthansa flight ~ 2 weeks ago I read a comparison test of a bunch of German SUVs (I think it was BMW, MB, Porsche and VW) in "Auto Motor und Sport" or "AutoBild" (forgot which one). VW came in first and Porsche second - primarily because the testers felt the suspension (of all things) was better in the VW. Unfortunately I do not recall more about the test. As i do not have a subscription to either it is a bit difficult on line to get a link to the test. Perhaps one of you guys has seen this. (MY wife is actually now looking at either an A7 TDI or a Cayenne Diesel - who would have thought two different vehicles with identical engines.)
08-18-2013, 02:22 PM
#57
Team Owner
Thread Starter
The wording I used in my OP must have been misleading. I am not trying to push my wife into something she doesn't wish but rather to fact gather so her decision is more informed than it would otherwise be.
Along that line, we did find a CPO Turbo in a good color combo (my wife is color sensitive detesting some car colors) but probably will not get it because I'd wish to drive it always leading to some conflict. So for now, we're not sure where we'll go on this thing but of course, since this is to be my wife's DD, it has to be one she can see herself driving every day including the rather uninspiring slog to her work.
As to the German auto mag finding the VW having a better suspension, the 'better' or worse would depend upon the bias of the testers. Frex, I can't, for the life of me, understand how Consumers Reports rates autos but I'm sure they do it fairly given what they are looking for. Frex, their mania about air bags and easy to attach car seats are given great weight by them, but have no weight with us.
Also your wife's 'all over the map' approach is identical to my wife. By no means is she vibrating between the V and the P here. She is considering an Audi coupe and just to make the world an interesting place, a Mazda CX 5. How one can shop a Cayenne Turbo, a Toureg, an Audi coupe and a a Mazda mini-UTE hatchback at the same time baffles me, but my job is to fact gather, offer an opinion if asked and act generally supportive.
Just to add to the mix, she told me today she is seriously considering adding a Husky bike to our bike inventory. I guess if you can't decide on a car, buy a bike while you settle on which car to buy.
Along that line, we did find a CPO Turbo in a good color combo (my wife is color sensitive detesting some car colors) but probably will not get it because I'd wish to drive it always leading to some conflict. So for now, we're not sure where we'll go on this thing but of course, since this is to be my wife's DD, it has to be one she can see herself driving every day including the rather uninspiring slog to her work.
As to the German auto mag finding the VW having a better suspension, the 'better' or worse would depend upon the bias of the testers. Frex, I can't, for the life of me, understand how Consumers Reports rates autos but I'm sure they do it fairly given what they are looking for. Frex, their mania about air bags and easy to attach car seats are given great weight by them, but have no weight with us.
Also your wife's 'all over the map' approach is identical to my wife. By no means is she vibrating between the V and the P here. She is considering an Audi coupe and just to make the world an interesting place, a Mazda CX 5. How one can shop a Cayenne Turbo, a Toureg, an Audi coupe and a a Mazda mini-UTE hatchback at the same time baffles me, but my job is to fact gather, offer an opinion if asked and act generally supportive.
Just to add to the mix, she told me today she is seriously considering adding a Husky bike to our bike inventory. I guess if you can't decide on a car, buy a bike while you settle on which car to buy.
08-18-2013, 02:23 PM
#58
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Some points to keep in mind:
1. Touareg interiors and infotainment are different than Cayenne. If anything, they share more with VAG's Bentley badge than they do with Porsche, except that Bentley is for the most part a generation behind the Touareg.
2. If how others 'treat' you on the road means anything, go with the VW. You're less likely to be cut-off, flipped-off, and carjacked by hoi polloi.
1. Touareg interiors and infotainment are different than Cayenne. If anything, they share more with VAG's Bentley badge than they do with Porsche, except that Bentley is for the most part a generation behind the Touareg.
2. If how others 'treat' you on the road means anything, go with the VW. You're less likely to be cut-off, flipped-off, and carjacked by hoi polloi.
08-18-2013, 02:41 PM
#59
Team Owner
Thread Starter
You make an interesting point, Maxy. I have heard many others say they are bullied or treated with discourtesy if they are in their high profile cars, but I"ve not personally found that to be the case with me. I have no idea why.
Frex, I once dated this girl. We were in my 'Vette (during my misguided 'Vette days) and going down the road, folks moved over for me. She commented that her ex husband had the exact opposite reception - that folks would slow down as he approached them or otherwise became a nuisance.
As to the Bentley / VW interiors, I'll not tell the Bentley owners if you don't.
Frex, I once dated this girl. We were in my 'Vette (during my misguided 'Vette days) and going down the road, folks moved over for me. She commented that her ex husband had the exact opposite reception - that folks would slow down as he approached them or otherwise became a nuisance.
As to the Bentley / VW interiors, I'll not tell the Bentley owners if you don't.
