Why buy 6 speed when Tip is faster?
07-13-2006, 02:33 PM
#76
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I wouldn't classify the current Tiptronic as a paddle shifter. There are no paddles - just buttons on the steering wheel. They are very hard to modulate in a sharp turn. And you can't use the console shifter as an alternate method like BMW SMG.
07-13-2006, 06:08 PM
#77
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I am not a race car driver, but I know enough that you are suppose to get your braking/downshifting done before the turn, not into the turn.
I think this race debate is as much of a point of arguing how well your Cayanne Turbo performs in the dirt. Most twins will never see 1 second of track time. If you want a great track car that has a manual trans, go buy a Noble M400! 450 HP stock, weighing in at 2400lbs would waste most every exotic out there, not to mention it pulls more g's on the skidpad.
I think this race debate is as much of a point of arguing how well your Cayanne Turbo performs in the dirt. Most twins will never see 1 second of track time. If you want a great track car that has a manual trans, go buy a Noble M400! 450 HP stock, weighing in at 2400lbs would waste most every exotic out there, not to mention it pulls more g's on the skidpad.
07-13-2006, 06:46 PM
#78
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I'm on my second 996 Turbo with Tiptronic and it's fine for me because I needed a car that was driveable for my wife occasionally but if I had no limitations I would have wanted a 6 speed. However, my opinion is that if people are going to buy the 997TT Tip because of Porsche's specs and see on paper it's faster there may end up being some disapointed drivers of those cars. I wouldn't be surprised to see several used Tips for sale before too long.
07-13-2006, 06:51 PM
#79
Three Wheelin'
no that I've officially become an "older" driver due to back injuries I can see the appeal of a "auto".
nah...rather relish in the pain.
what's the appeal of the tip instead of the 6 speed? esp in a car like a turbo. I don't get it. ease driving? limited stick ability? what?
nah...rather relish in the pain.
what's the appeal of the tip instead of the 6 speed? esp in a car like a turbo. I don't get it. ease driving? limited stick ability? what?
07-13-2006, 09:13 PM
#80
Drifting
Originally Posted by budfox9
I am not a race car driver, but I know enough that you are suppose to get your braking/downshifting done before the turn, not into the turn.
Yes and no. As you stated you don't have track experience (or race experience but I assume you mean track as well.) What you know, get your braking and downshifting done before the turn is what is taught to novice drivers on the track and on the street. It's a basic, a fundamental.
Once you progress as a driver, the next step in braking is called "TRAIL BRAKING" which actually means, braking while turning.
Trail Braking allows you to carry more speed and is also important in inducing (please don't quote me on this because i'm going to say it wrong) TTO, "trailing throttle oversteer".. which helps to set a slip angle that glides you through the turn.
So just to rehash.. for beginners, BRAKE IN A STRAIGHT LINE...
For more advanced drivers, "Trail Brake"..
I will also try to explain it like this: A car has 100% traction, if you exceed 100% you are actually decreasing your performance (like when you lock your brakes, you have exceeded 100% of your cars braking ability making your car stop in a greater distance rather than in a lesser distance.
- So when you are going into a turn while braking, you can use, for example, 80% of the cars traction to brake and 20% to turn.
Or you can use 70% to turn and 30% to accelerate. Etc. etc.
- So once you have some skills under your belt, your constantly trying to find that perfect marriage of braking and turning -- or accelerating and turning..
B
07-15-2006, 11:26 AM
#81
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Dave Murry told me once, "if you're not trail braking, you're not road racing". These new Porsches love trail braking, definitely the fastest way around the track, that's one reason they teach it at the PDE course. IMO,the straight line braking stuff is the conservative PCA/ old 911 way around the track, not the fastest way but safe. So when you're learning the track straight line brake, then work up to trail braking with more experience.
07-18-2006, 02:28 AM
#82
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Originally Posted by B-Line
Boolala,
ummm, first, nice big word, anarchronism... Had to look it up. "a person or practice that belongs to an earlier time"
Then I realized you spelled it wrong. So that makes two mistakes on your last post.
I am willing to bet, you are not a track guy. You've probably never been to racing school, ala: Skip Barber, Bondurant, etc.. -- I would further say that you have probably never heard the term:
Double Clutch-Heel-n-toe downshifting while Threshold braking. Or have driven a sequential gearbox in addition to a H box. Or done any left foot braking while throttle blipping.
For those of us in the "know" any Tip or Auto, even SMG, is for the dentist/boulevard cruisers. (Or for very high end race cars where every tenth of a second counts.) -- But for the true driving enthusiast, you can't beat a manual clutch. -- Saying that a clutch is a thing of the past is equivalent to saying, "why would I turn off Porsche Stability Management, I want the car to do the thinking for me." Why buy a $140K car that drives itself? Save your money, there's a Maybach in your future.
I have no doubt the TIP is faster. But so is a Corvette Z06 and it's half the price. If you don't want to sit in traffic with a manual, fine that's your option. But to claim that a clutch is an out of date tool is like saying, who needs a sail boat when you can buy an OUTBOARD...
or, who needs a bicycle when you can buy a motorcycle. It's about the connection between man and machine.
But some people just don't get it...
B
ummm, first, nice big word, anarchronism... Had to look it up. "a person or practice that belongs to an earlier time"
Then I realized you spelled it wrong. So that makes two mistakes on your last post.
I am willing to bet, you are not a track guy. You've probably never been to racing school, ala: Skip Barber, Bondurant, etc.. -- I would further say that you have probably never heard the term:
Double Clutch-Heel-n-toe downshifting while Threshold braking. Or have driven a sequential gearbox in addition to a H box. Or done any left foot braking while throttle blipping.
For those of us in the "know" any Tip or Auto, even SMG, is for the dentist/boulevard cruisers. (Or for very high end race cars where every tenth of a second counts.) -- But for the true driving enthusiast, you can't beat a manual clutch. -- Saying that a clutch is a thing of the past is equivalent to saying, "why would I turn off Porsche Stability Management, I want the car to do the thinking for me." Why buy a $140K car that drives itself? Save your money, there's a Maybach in your future.
I have no doubt the TIP is faster. But so is a Corvette Z06 and it's half the price. If you don't want to sit in traffic with a manual, fine that's your option. But to claim that a clutch is an out of date tool is like saying, who needs a sail boat when you can buy an OUTBOARD...
or, who needs a bicycle when you can buy a motorcycle. It's about the connection between man and machine.
But some people just don't get it...
B
07-21-2006, 01:35 PM
#83
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Asking what transmissions F1 cars use misses the point.
1. They don't use anything that resembles a Tiptronic slushbox with a torque converter. A real racing gearbox is a beast of very little value on the street. Shifting it slowly would actually damage it.
2. Their goal is to win. Driver enjoyment is not even considered. Ergonomics go only as far as to prevent the driver from passing out during a race. Porsche build their street cars for the owners to enjoy. Nobody paid a 911 TT driver to drive the car. If someone paid me good money to race a car (yeah, right) I will do it with whatever equipment they give me.
As for the argument that manual shifting is not as efficient as automatic I can say this:
Why do people still bother to take drawing classes and insist on painting with their own hands? A digital camera is much cheaper and will give more accurate results. And even photographes always insist on using manual modes with their cameras instead of the supposedly more accurate automatic modes. At least the ones that take pictures that are worth looking at.
There is a lot of satisfaction in controlling something with skill and precision that has been developed over years of practice. Racing someone 0-60 in a 997TT with Tip takes no skill at all. It's more of a ***** length competition to see who has the bigger unit. A 17-year with a license still warm out of the DMV plastinator machine will get the same exact result. Is there any fun in that? Maybe the 1st time.
1. They don't use anything that resembles a Tiptronic slushbox with a torque converter. A real racing gearbox is a beast of very little value on the street. Shifting it slowly would actually damage it.
2. Their goal is to win. Driver enjoyment is not even considered. Ergonomics go only as far as to prevent the driver from passing out during a race. Porsche build their street cars for the owners to enjoy. Nobody paid a 911 TT driver to drive the car. If someone paid me good money to race a car (yeah, right) I will do it with whatever equipment they give me.
As for the argument that manual shifting is not as efficient as automatic I can say this:
Why do people still bother to take drawing classes and insist on painting with their own hands? A digital camera is much cheaper and will give more accurate results. And even photographes always insist on using manual modes with their cameras instead of the supposedly more accurate automatic modes. At least the ones that take pictures that are worth looking at.
There is a lot of satisfaction in controlling something with skill and precision that has been developed over years of practice. Racing someone 0-60 in a 997TT with Tip takes no skill at all. It's more of a ***** length competition to see who has the bigger unit. A 17-year with a license still warm out of the DMV plastinator machine will get the same exact result. Is there any fun in that? Maybe the 1st time.
07-21-2006, 02:55 PM
#85
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Originally Posted by MetalSolid
I think the difference is there are people that want to be able to drive fast and people that enjoy driving quickly.
spot on Noellie!!! with a chubmobile cruiser like the TT a tip makes sense for LA traffic and putzing around. in a GT3, it is much more appealing to enjoy the experience of driving quickly with a stick....
07-21-2006, 03:59 PM
#87
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WOW this thread is up to 6 PAGES! Why the back and forth controversy
here is the deal...........Porsche wants to sell lots of cars and please the shareholders. Porsche customers want automatic transmissions and if Porsche DID NOT offer automatics they would loose a TON of sales. Corvette is like 85% automatics and it would be interesting to fit out what the sales % is for 996TT, 997TT and other cars in Porsches line-up.
Transmissions are personal preferences and lets not beat each other up or name call.
HOWEVER I have driven a ton of various Porsche cars with Tiptronics transmissions on the street and race track from 1990 964 cabriolets to a 2004 X50 996TT with 600HP.
The ONLY WAY any AUTOMATIC car is faster is in straight line acceleration from a DEAD STOP START...........I dont care what Porsche AG tells you........automatics are slower everwhere else as the power is never right there. You have to wait until the computer either downshifts and realizes what you want.
DONT LET ANYONE tell you the TIP is faster and "ASSUME" that it is faster 100% of the time. Dont a 100% BUY into it. Its just like the "Ceramic GT2 brakes" are a lifelong 150,000 mile plus no maintenance braking system.
I am sure that the 996TT and 997TT are faster under dragrace standing start situations...........virtually all DRAGRACER run automatics............here is the scenario that the wizards of even Porsche picked up that is old news in the USA since the 1960s................"left foot on the brake.............right foot strong on the gas"..........(this gets all the slop out of any Automatic transmission and gets the engine all brake torqued).
Then with the TURBOS all boosted up ready for COMBAT you release the brake and FLOOR the accelerator and the youre gone. NO slipping of the 6speed clutch and no more shifting between gears on the automatic.
Everywhere else the 6speed has an advantage all day long....................street & race track.
The real answer is PORSCHE needs to "eat crow" and liscense Ferrari's amazing F1 tranmission systems from the F430 and ENZO and install that in their cars. Of course the headstrong Germans will never do that..................but why cant they get the Egear from AUDIs Gallardo since since Porsceh owns 20% of VW ground and the families are realated..
Never drove an SMG or Egear so someone else will have to comment.
Joe Fabiani
here is the deal...........Porsche wants to sell lots of cars and please the shareholders. Porsche customers want automatic transmissions and if Porsche DID NOT offer automatics they would loose a TON of sales. Corvette is like 85% automatics and it would be interesting to fit out what the sales % is for 996TT, 997TT and other cars in Porsches line-up.
Transmissions are personal preferences and lets not beat each other up or name call.
HOWEVER I have driven a ton of various Porsche cars with Tiptronics transmissions on the street and race track from 1990 964 cabriolets to a 2004 X50 996TT with 600HP.
The ONLY WAY any AUTOMATIC car is faster is in straight line acceleration from a DEAD STOP START...........I dont care what Porsche AG tells you........automatics are slower everwhere else as the power is never right there. You have to wait until the computer either downshifts and realizes what you want.
DONT LET ANYONE tell you the TIP is faster and "ASSUME" that it is faster 100% of the time. Dont a 100% BUY into it. Its just like the "Ceramic GT2 brakes" are a lifelong 150,000 mile plus no maintenance braking system.
I am sure that the 996TT and 997TT are faster under dragrace standing start situations...........virtually all DRAGRACER run automatics............here is the scenario that the wizards of even Porsche picked up that is old news in the USA since the 1960s................"left foot on the brake.............right foot strong on the gas"..........(this gets all the slop out of any Automatic transmission and gets the engine all brake torqued).
Then with the TURBOS all boosted up ready for COMBAT you release the brake and FLOOR the accelerator and the youre gone. NO slipping of the 6speed clutch and no more shifting between gears on the automatic.
Everywhere else the 6speed has an advantage all day long....................street & race track.
The real answer is PORSCHE needs to "eat crow" and liscense Ferrari's amazing F1 tranmission systems from the F430 and ENZO and install that in their cars. Of course the headstrong Germans will never do that..................but why cant they get the Egear from AUDIs Gallardo since since Porsceh owns 20% of VW ground and the families are realated..
Never drove an SMG or Egear so someone else will have to comment.
Joe Fabiani
07-21-2006, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by MetalSolid
Wattsters! Get your blvd. cruiser yet?
have rs coming, may get reg. gt3 or gallardo...
07-21-2006, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by watt
the more i see the fat ugly pig w/ the mercedes feel, and boxster/crown vic interior the less inclined i am to bother... it just communicates "we're porsche and we make cayennes. "
have rs coming, may get reg. gt3 or gallardo...
have rs coming, may get reg. gt3 or gallardo...
09-11-2006, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by amaist
Asking what transmissions F1 cars use misses the point.
1. They don't use anything that resembles a Tiptronic slushbox with a torque converter. A real racing gearbox is a beast of very little value on the street. Shifting it slowly would actually damage it.
2. Their goal is to win. Driver enjoyment is not even considered. Ergonomics go only as far as to prevent the driver from passing out during a race. Porsche build their street cars for the owners to enjoy. Nobody paid a 911 TT driver to drive the car. If someone paid me good money to race a car (yeah, right) I will do it with whatever equipment they give me.
As for the argument that manual shifting is not as efficient as automatic I can say this:
Why do people still bother to take drawing classes and insist on painting with their own hands? A digital camera is much cheaper and will give more accurate results. And even photographes always insist on using manual modes with their cameras instead of the supposedly more accurate automatic modes. At least the ones that take pictures that are worth looking at.
There is a lot of satisfaction in controlling something with skill and precision that has been developed over years of practice. Racing someone 0-60 in a 997TT with Tip takes no skill at all. It's more of a ***** length competition to see who has the bigger unit. A 17-year with a license still warm out of the DMV plastinator machine will get the same exact result. Is there any fun in that? Maybe the 1st time.
1. They don't use anything that resembles a Tiptronic slushbox with a torque converter. A real racing gearbox is a beast of very little value on the street. Shifting it slowly would actually damage it.
2. Their goal is to win. Driver enjoyment is not even considered. Ergonomics go only as far as to prevent the driver from passing out during a race. Porsche build their street cars for the owners to enjoy. Nobody paid a 911 TT driver to drive the car. If someone paid me good money to race a car (yeah, right) I will do it with whatever equipment they give me.
As for the argument that manual shifting is not as efficient as automatic I can say this:
Why do people still bother to take drawing classes and insist on painting with their own hands? A digital camera is much cheaper and will give more accurate results. And even photographes always insist on using manual modes with their cameras instead of the supposedly more accurate automatic modes. At least the ones that take pictures that are worth looking at.
There is a lot of satisfaction in controlling something with skill and precision that has been developed over years of practice. Racing someone 0-60 in a 997TT with Tip takes no skill at all. It's more of a ***** length competition to see who has the bigger unit. A 17-year with a license still warm out of the DMV plastinator machine will get the same exact result. Is there any fun in that? Maybe the 1st time.