boolala

The answer to all your questions is no. Although I have driven a car with a manual transmission I have never owned one. Never really saw the point. If that makes me a poser then fine. I don't define myself by what I drive. I buy my cars for myself and not to impress anyone else.

Now it's OK to lump me in the category of those who just don't "get it". I don't understand the reason why a clutch has to be a manual device. If the technology were available from the beginning clutches would all be electronic and we wouldn't even be having this discussion. I do understand why some people feel the manual is more "engaging" than an fully automatic transmission. But that advantage pales in comparison to the hassle factor when you are stuck in stop and go traffic.

Since DSG style transmissions do the rev matching automatically what exactly is the point of your fancy heel and toe dance? Again i see your point WRT fully auto transmissions.

I do think that we are seeing the last gasp of the manual transmission. In the near future it is going to be in no man's land between those who want the real F1 style transmissions which are faster and allow you to keep both hands on the wheel during spirited driving and those who do not want to pony up the expence (or feel the need for) a DSG and opt for the auto.

B-Line

Boo,

Good retort... I don't think your a "poser" everyone buys a car for their own reason. I just think you don't really know or understand the manual vs. tip. arguement.

If you said to me, this is my everyday car, I sit in a lot of traffic and I don't want a clutch, I could understand that. Or my wife wants to drive it and she hates a stick, ok, .... But the reason, "I" buy a sports car, is for the "sport" of driving. And having a clutch/stick is what gives a sports car that "extra" feeling of connection, regardless of the performance numbers.

- If the car is being bought because it's pretty, or can "get chicks" or because it can take a BMW M5 at the line, a little bit of the essence of "Porsche" is being taken away.

- Remember, historicaly, Porsche's were never the fastest car 0-60. Not even close. They were not 1/4 mile cars either. Porsche's best qualities were the handling and braking of the vehicle AND MOST IMPORTANT, it's ability to go to the track and get beat on all day long, and then still being able to drive it home.

-- A Porsche is not an AMERICAN MUSCLE CAR designed to go fast in a straight line with a Hearst Slam Shifter..

-- That's why you rarely see 911 guys dumping the clutch at a stop light and racing the IROC. With a rear engine, it's really bad for the car. These are not SS Camaro's. They are fine pieces of german engineering designed in mind with closed circuit racing.

-- Now in 1992, some bean counter figured out, if they add power steering, automatic transmissions and cup holders, Porsche could sell more cars. The wife's will buy them, the blvd. cruisers will buy them and the true enthusiast will also buy them despite the watered down flavor, : why: because no other car can still go to the track and get beat on all day long, all weekend long, and still be able to drive it home.

-- The tip and clutchless manuals will sell, probably in big numbers, probably to many guys on this board. Some might even track them.. But for the most part, lets not forget what Porsche is really designed to be. A great handling, great braking, work horse.. Even the non-turbo 911's are not that fast off the line. My Audi S4 with stage 2 mods used to be faster off the line for 1/2 the price.

But saying that Manuals are going away is (and don't take this offensively) LAUGHABLE.. They are not going anywhere. Even BMW which pushes and pushes their SMG's are still making manuals for all their M series cars and regular production 3 and 5 series, even though the SMG is faster. The only german car company that doesn't make a manual is Mercedes. And only in the states. Mercedes makes tons of manuals for the Euro market.

btw, don't forget, the rest of the non US world.. They all drive manuals.. Ever been to Europe.. Even the cabs are stick..

B

B-Line

Good question: A heel n toe is a beautiful thing. It feels great doing it. Blipping the throttle while braking during a downshift, it's like sex, it just feels good to do.

Let me pose this question to you, what if you could buy a 911 with a full AUTO PILOT. Meaning, you don't have to steer, or brake or accelerate. You just get in the car and voice activated tell it where you want to go, 15 minutes later, you are there. Lets say there's even no steering wheel or brakes or throttle, just a DVD player and screen where you can watch CNN. And, it gets you there faster than if you were behind the controls.
-- Does that make the car better? I mean, you don't need to drive it anymore. It arrives sooner, maybe even safer and you can watch TV at the same time. -- Will you then look at the people who still prefer to "drive" their cars as ancient??

Some of us really, really LOVE to drive. The more controls you take away from us and give to a computer, the less satisfied we are with the experience. Now no one is suggesting we go back to steam engines where we need to be engineers to drive the damn things.. But just think about what I am saying here. Do you really want to spend $140K on a car that drives itself?

B

mastiffdog

This is an interesting question and depending on how each of us responds will be very telling. I am an instrument rated pilot and recently completed my training to fly "glass" cockpits, which are essentially computers, rather than a series of analog gauges. I loving flying planes because I can manually control the inputs, it is an art. Even with all of the modern technology of GPS, Auto Pilot, etc. it is still very fullfilling for me to be able to take off and land the airplane. And because the control of the plane is an art, no two landings are ever the same ...

B-Line

Hey Mastif,

You call your self an old guy.. I beg to differ. You fly planes, ride Moto's and buy turbo charged Porsches. We should all be so "young"..

Are you sure with all these exciting things you do I will not be able to convince you to bring that 997TT onto the track for a day. You will love it.

B

mastiffdog

I know I would, that's why I probably won't. I engage in alot of activities and enjoy them all, but I am very conservative the way I go about them.


Does this therefore qualify me as one of those poseurs everyone talks about?

allegretto

Just read the article. Obviously written by someone who doesn't drive much stick. I don't find manual trans one bit distracting while driving, in fact just the opposite, it keeps me "in the game".

Now if I had access to a really good racing clutchless trans as AS spoke of, I might be inclined to use that. I have only sampled the Ferrari and BMW. the F is better than the B IMHO.

Any Porsche Tip I have driven has invariably chosen the wrong gear from time to time. This is uncomfortable on the street, but a similar mistake on the track can be dangerous. If the car shifts at the wrong time while on a line in a crowded turn...you guys who have been there know what I mean!

That's why you only see clutchless on the very high end racers. If you don't like stick or cannot drive it for some reason, a Tip is nice. But if you know stick a/o you track, manual is the way to go.

I predict you will see clutchless on the track, but you'll never see Tip!

38D

Using the above logic, mult-link suspensions are just as much of a crutch over swing axle 356s. I am a racing guy, and I'd want the fastest technology possible, which would be a true clutchless sequential ala F1. I don't like the tip because it weighs more, has a torque converter and the damn computer takes over half the time. When I want the car to shift, I want it to shift now.

Btw, double clutching is an absolute and utter waste of time on any trans with synchros.

B-Line

38D, your right, no arguement here. Double clutching is a utter waste of time with synchros.. I was using double clutching to illustrate a point but thanks for keeping me in check. Your argument for a clutchless sequential is right on point. Having driven a sequential on a Fomula Ford, it is amazing however, I don't think it would be an appropiate trans for a car that is also driven on the street. -- And, on the Formula Ford's, even though there is a clutch, it's not really needed for upshifting or downshifting (however I would recommend it for downshifting unless your really that good.)

-- I think the arguement for or against here should be kept to some paramaters. We are talking about a 997 TT, which is a street car not a CUP CAR. If I were "Racing" a CUP CAR.. I would want every last bit of performance/technology.. But for a street car that visits the track, (not on the clock..) it is more fun with an H box.

1AS

Anybody here ever try a Jericho? I have them in 2 cars. After you are rolling, you never need the clutch. A momentary pause on the upshift, and a vigirous blip on the downshift are all that is necessary. That is done with your left foot on the brake and your right on the gas. It is clearly easier than a heel/toe in a car that needs your left foot on the clutch. I t does not make driving less involving or less satisfying.
The major negative impact of the tip is that the torque converter softens the visceral kick of the car in gear. The upside is that it downshifts and upshifts faster than you can, without fear of damaging the box.
Regarding "wrong gear" on the track- not a problem when left in full auto. It is kind of amazing. It also will allow an upshift in the middle of a long sweeper that would totally upset the car if you had to put in the clutch.
Since the new tt allows brake torquing, I'm curious if it will allow simultaneous gas and throttle as you exit a corner. If you want a whole new dimension is rocketing out of a corner, that's a technique you should try. If the new tip does that, it will defang the "joy of driving" arguement, as the manual boxes clearly don't allow it. AS

fpb

Tips are for the handicapped-everybody drives in traffic.

How often do people do 0-60 drag races anyway?

boolala

Thank goodness for the "American's with Disabilities Act." But for that PNA might not even offer a tip.

I go 0 - 60 (at least) every day and as fast as I can. I think it's a more relevent criteria for street drving than how many G's the car can pull in a hairpin turn at the track.

Even those people whose car is more than a fashion accessory (like most those on rennlist -- excepting poseurs like myself, of course) rarely track their cars more than a few times a year. For 99% of their driving it's 0 - 60 + freeway.

38D

I guess that's true. My view is always colored by the fact that I have a track car that visits the street. If I had a car as fast as a 997tt, I would have to track it and probably race it too .

Y65MPH

For a short period of time I owned both a a tip and 6-speed 996TT. When we would take them out for a run everyone would fight for the tip. No, it did not give you the feel, esprit de corps, or whatever a manual trans gives you but it sure was fun. It was alot like a moped. Fun to ride, but would you would not want to be seen riding it. So each to their own. I prefer the 6 speed but I would not turn my nose up at a tip. Nothing like pushing the loud pedal into the deep pile and holding on. Can put a grin on your face real fast.

Ken89911T

AS

You said "...will allow simultaneous gas and throttle as you exit a corner." Did you mean BRAKE and throttle?

Does this kind of driving inherently harm the TC? Seems like my dad told me eons ago not to step on both brake and gas because it damages the TC. Of course, that was with the auto trannies of the day.