The 997 GT3/RS Cars For Sale Thread...
03-04-2019, 09:28 PM
#2116
Burning Brakes
Somewhere else. Every car that I've had go RNM on BaT has found a buyer at my needed price somewhere else, with the rare exception of a couple very obscure vehicles.
BaT is a wonderful venue. But they are very weak in certain types of vehicles, and the 997 GT3/RS is one of those. In the last year they have had a 30% sell rate on BaT, which is less than half of the site average. I listed two which did not even get within spitting distance of wholesale value (real, not theoretical/wishful).
In December 2017, I bought a 997 GT3 on BaT and sold it in less than a month for 10% more elsewhere.
It's the age old market discussion. The buyers say the sky is falling. The sellers say it's a bull market. The truth is somewhere in between, and to get a real picture of the market we have to consider data points which benefit both sides. It seems like every time a discussion like this comes up, it's the buyers picking the examples that benefit them the most, even though MOST people don't want the cars in the bottom 10% of the spectrum, and for good reason. Sure, you can get some scores in that bunch, but it's risky, and more often than not you get burned.
BaT is a wonderful venue. But they are very weak in certain types of vehicles, and the 997 GT3/RS is one of those. In the last year they have had a 30% sell rate on BaT, which is less than half of the site average. I listed two which did not even get within spitting distance of wholesale value (real, not theoretical/wishful).
In December 2017, I bought a 997 GT3 on BaT and sold it in less than a month for 10% more elsewhere.
It's the age old market discussion. The buyers say the sky is falling. The sellers say it's a bull market. The truth is somewhere in between, and to get a real picture of the market we have to consider data points which benefit both sides. It seems like every time a discussion like this comes up, it's the buyers picking the examples that benefit them the most, even though MOST people don't want the cars in the bottom 10% of the spectrum, and for good reason. Sure, you can get some scores in that bunch, but it's risky, and more often than not you get burned.
The other reason that BAT sales have a 30% success rate for GT3's is that most people in their right mind will not buy a GT3 without a thorough PPI and not seeing/driving the car.
03-04-2019, 09:29 PM
#2117
Rennlist Member
BAT also has new competition in the Porsche marketplace. https://www.pcarmarket.com
I believe this site just went live this week, and I if successful will no doubt take BAT business on Porsche cars.
I believe this site just went live this week, and I if successful will no doubt take BAT business on Porsche cars.
03-06-2019, 12:15 PM
#2118
Rennlist Member
Secondly, I think there's some ethnocentric bias in assuming BAT's audience. Time is the only resource we can't hoard. And I'd gather that the audience/market of buyers of a $100k toy find the time value of money is better spent with an expert doing the job for them (i.e. Doug) than spending time reading through comments on an internet auction site, spending time flying to wherever a car is to do a PPI (or spending time to find someone local to do it for them). That decreases the market size and the willing buying price from a site like BAT for this category of product.
And this is different from a GT3 on a dealer lot that may require the same time investment, because, in BAT's case, there is a known time restriction on the market. A car on a dealer lot has an undefined time in market.
BAT also has new competition in the Porsche marketplace. https://www.pcarmarket.com
I believe this site just went live this week, and I if successful will no doubt take BAT business on Porsche cars.
I believe this site just went live this week, and I if successful will no doubt take BAT business on Porsche cars.
03-06-2019, 12:39 PM
#2119
Rennlist Member
BAT also has new competition in the Porsche marketplace. https://www.pcarmarket.com
I believe this site just went live this week, and I if successful will no doubt take BAT business on Porsche cars.
I believe this site just went live this week, and I if successful will no doubt take BAT business on Porsche cars.
03-06-2019, 02:05 PM
#2120
Rennlist Member
Incredulous, hypothetical question i realize but the answer is no. And this site lacks a lot of the useful functionality of BaT. Moreover, the email marketing is horrendous. Broken links, missing links. wonky format. BaT already exists and has for some time and they couldn't even replicate its functionality much less emulate it prior to launch. That does not bode well for their success. this company needs to hire a better UX/UI team and marketing team pronto. my guess is it was created by people who know the auction world and have connections to get cars on the site but they know jack all about web marketing and ecomm.
03-06-2019, 04:06 PM
#2121
I personally would only buy a car from BAT if I felt my risk was covered with the price, which would inevitably lead to well below market price on a car like a GT3.
03-07-2019, 01:09 AM
#2122
Rennlist Member
BAT in its original roots was about finding cool/unusual project cars for sale through all sorts of venues, but it certainly has morphed more into a tool for more expensive/exotic stuff.
Nothing wrong with that per-se, but for those types of cars, I *absolutely* want to put my own eyes on it before pulling the trigger.
It irritates the hell out of me that there is no way to see the location of cars without drilling down on each and every one... And with nearly 200 cars at auction on any given time period, what a PITA. Yup, I'll drill down on the four or five specific cars I know I'd be interested in, but I would absolutely consider an opportunity buy of some other cool car *if and only if it was within say 120 miles*.
It would be absolutely trivial for them to list the state the car is in in the summary, or provide an overview auction map showing all of the cars up for sale, but I guess at a 5% buyers premium with about 35 cars a day (Quick guess, $12M+/yr in buyers premiums with ridiculously low operational cost? ), there probably isn't much motivation on their part to "improve".
Also no surprise others are trying to duplicate the model...
Nothing wrong with that per-se, but for those types of cars, I *absolutely* want to put my own eyes on it before pulling the trigger.
It irritates the hell out of me that there is no way to see the location of cars without drilling down on each and every one... And with nearly 200 cars at auction on any given time period, what a PITA. Yup, I'll drill down on the four or five specific cars I know I'd be interested in, but I would absolutely consider an opportunity buy of some other cool car *if and only if it was within say 120 miles*.
It would be absolutely trivial for them to list the state the car is in in the summary, or provide an overview auction map showing all of the cars up for sale, but I guess at a 5% buyers premium with about 35 cars a day (Quick guess, $12M+/yr in buyers premiums with ridiculously low operational cost? ), there probably isn't much motivation on their part to "improve".
Also no surprise others are trying to duplicate the model...
03-07-2019, 01:31 AM
#2123
GT3 player par excellence
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Somewhere else. Every car that I've had go RNM on BaT has found a buyer at my needed price somewhere else, with the rare exception of a couple very obscure vehicles.
BaT is a wonderful venue. But they are very weak in certain types of vehicles, and the 997 GT3/RS is one of those. In the last year they have had a 30% sell rate on BaT, which is less than half of the site average. I listed two which did not even get within spitting distance of wholesale value (real, not theoretical/wishful).
In December 2017, I bought a 997 GT3 on BaT and sold it in less than a month for 10% more elsewhere.
It's the age old market discussion. The buyers say the sky is falling. The sellers say it's a bull market. The truth is somewhere in between, and to get a real picture of the market we have to consider data points which benefit both sides. It seems like every time a discussion like this comes up, it's the buyers picking the examples that benefit them the most, even though MOST people don't want the cars in the bottom 10% of the spectrum, and for good reason. Sure, you can get some scores in that bunch, but it's risky, and more often than not you get burned.
BaT is a wonderful venue. But they are very weak in certain types of vehicles, and the 997 GT3/RS is one of those. In the last year they have had a 30% sell rate on BaT, which is less than half of the site average. I listed two which did not even get within spitting distance of wholesale value (real, not theoretical/wishful).
In December 2017, I bought a 997 GT3 on BaT and sold it in less than a month for 10% more elsewhere.
It's the age old market discussion. The buyers say the sky is falling. The sellers say it's a bull market. The truth is somewhere in between, and to get a real picture of the market we have to consider data points which benefit both sides. It seems like every time a discussion like this comes up, it's the buyers picking the examples that benefit them the most, even though MOST people don't want the cars in the bottom 10% of the spectrum, and for good reason. Sure, you can get some scores in that bunch, but it's risky, and more often than not you get burned.
for stuff like toilet paper I do that.
for stuff that I LOVE and not NECESSITY. it's about passion.
if I like it, and I can afford it, I don't really care what the mkt is. and most of the cars I kept were bought at significantly higher than mkt
if I don't like something I just cut it out and sell at whatever I can get.
life is way too short to constantly justify every little thing..
but for now, Costco has charmin on sale. it's Lower than market, I am there with my dully and 42' trailer. I will empty them out
03-07-2019, 09:57 AM
#2124
Rennlist Member
Well said guys. Thank you for providing excellent perspective....
Somewhere else. Every car that I've had go RNM on BaT has found a buyer at my needed price somewhere else, with the rare exception of a couple very obscure vehicles.
BaT is a wonderful venue. But they are very weak in certain types of vehicles, and the 997 GT3/RS is one of those. In the last year they have had a 30% sell rate on BaT, which is less than half of the site average. I listed two which did not even get within spitting distance of wholesale value (real, not theoretical/wishful).
In December 2017, I bought a 997 GT3 on BaT and sold it in less than a month for 10% more elsewhere.
It's the age old market discussion. The buyers say the sky is falling. The sellers say it's a bull market. The truth is somewhere in between, and to get a real picture of the market we have to consider data points which benefit both sides. It seems like every time a discussion like this comes up, it's the buyers picking the examples that benefit them the most, even though MOST people don't want the cars in the bottom 10% of the spectrum, and for good reason. Sure, you can get some scores in that bunch, but it's risky, and more often than not you get burned.
THIS!
Secondly, I think there's some ethnocentric bias in assuming BAT's audience. Time is the only resource we can't hoard. And I'd gather that the audience/market of buyers of a $100k toy find the time value of money is better spent with an expert doing the job for them (i.e. Doug) than spending time reading through comments on an internet auction site, spending time flying to wherever a car is to do a PPI (or spending time to find someone local to do it for them). That decreases the market size and the willing buying price from a site like BAT for this category of product.
And this is different from a GT3 on a dealer lot that may require the same time investment, because, in BAT's case, there is a known time restriction on the market. A car on a dealer lot has an undefined time in market.
... and of course HILARIOUS as usual,... and SPOT ON as is typical of Mooty's posts...
Btw, pcarmarket.com seems to have been built by the CollectorCarShowcase guys up on Long Island. For over 6 months, I've seen them heavily marketing pcarmarket on their Instagram.
Over just the last 6 months, in the 964 market on BaT, we've also seen a huge degradation on the quality of their listings. Crap everything. bad cars, terrible pictures, poor descriptions, and sellers who are completely ABSENT from commenting & answering questions on the cars they are selling. IMO these auction sites are quickly dying. The cars left to sell & buy are the bottom of the quality spectrum. As said above (thnx pfbz), most of us true enthusiasts will not participate in those auctions,.. but rather put our eyes, ears, drive / crawl around the cars we buy, and use the experts with the KNOWN clientele such as Doug, Mooty & Cobalt (Anthony, guru of all cars 964).
My .02
=Steve
BaT is a wonderful venue. But they are very weak in certain types of vehicles, and the 997 GT3/RS is one of those. In the last year they have had a 30% sell rate on BaT, which is less than half of the site average. I listed two which did not even get within spitting distance of wholesale value (real, not theoretical/wishful).
In December 2017, I bought a 997 GT3 on BaT and sold it in less than a month for 10% more elsewhere.
It's the age old market discussion. The buyers say the sky is falling. The sellers say it's a bull market. The truth is somewhere in between, and to get a real picture of the market we have to consider data points which benefit both sides. It seems like every time a discussion like this comes up, it's the buyers picking the examples that benefit them the most, even though MOST people don't want the cars in the bottom 10% of the spectrum, and for good reason. Sure, you can get some scores in that bunch, but it's risky, and more often than not you get burned.
Secondly, I think there's some ethnocentric bias in assuming BAT's audience. Time is the only resource we can't hoard. And I'd gather that the audience/market of buyers of a $100k toy find the time value of money is better spent with an expert doing the job for them (i.e. Doug) than spending time reading through comments on an internet auction site, spending time flying to wherever a car is to do a PPI (or spending time to find someone local to do it for them). That decreases the market size and the willing buying price from a site like BAT for this category of product.
And this is different from a GT3 on a dealer lot that may require the same time investment, because, in BAT's case, there is a known time restriction on the market. A car on a dealer lot has an undefined time in market.
some ppl like to follow the mkt and buy the mkt
for stuff like toilet paper I do that.
for stuff that I LOVE and not NECESSITY. it's about passion.
if I like it, and I can afford it, I don't really care what the mkt is. and most of the cars I kept were bought at significantly higher than mkt
if I don't like something I just cut it out and sell at whatever I can get.
life is way too short to constantly justify every little thing..
but for now, Costco has charmin on sale. it's Lower than market, I am there with my dully and 42' trailer. I will empty them out
for stuff like toilet paper I do that.
for stuff that I LOVE and not NECESSITY. it's about passion.
if I like it, and I can afford it, I don't really care what the mkt is. and most of the cars I kept were bought at significantly higher than mkt
if I don't like something I just cut it out and sell at whatever I can get.
life is way too short to constantly justify every little thing..
but for now, Costco has charmin on sale. it's Lower than market, I am there with my dully and 42' trailer. I will empty them out
Over just the last 6 months, in the 964 market on BaT, we've also seen a huge degradation on the quality of their listings. Crap everything. bad cars, terrible pictures, poor descriptions, and sellers who are completely ABSENT from commenting & answering questions on the cars they are selling. IMO these auction sites are quickly dying. The cars left to sell & buy are the bottom of the quality spectrum. As said above (thnx pfbz), most of us true enthusiasts will not participate in those auctions,.. but rather put our eyes, ears, drive / crawl around the cars we buy, and use the experts with the KNOWN clientele such as Doug, Mooty & Cobalt (Anthony, guru of all cars 964).
My .02
=Steve
03-07-2019, 10:57 AM
#2125
some ppl like to follow the mkt and buy the mkt
for stuff like toilet paper I do that.
for stuff that I LOVE and not NECESSITY. it's about passion.
if I like it, and I can afford it, I don't really care what the mkt is. and most of the cars I kept were bought at significantly higher than mkt
if I don't like something I just cut it out and sell at whatever I can get.
life is way too short to constantly justify every little thing..
but for now, Costco has charmin on sale. it's Lower than market, I am there with my dully and 42' trailer. I will empty them out
for stuff like toilet paper I do that.
for stuff that I LOVE and not NECESSITY. it's about passion.
if I like it, and I can afford it, I don't really care what the mkt is. and most of the cars I kept were bought at significantly higher than mkt
if I don't like something I just cut it out and sell at whatever I can get.
life is way too short to constantly justify every little thing..
but for now, Costco has charmin on sale. it's Lower than market, I am there with my dully and 42' trailer. I will empty them out
I love you Mooty
03-07-2019, 11:05 AM
#2126
some ppl like to follow the mkt and buy the mkt
for stuff like toilet paper I do that.
for stuff that I LOVE and not NECESSITY. it's about passion.
if I like it, and I can afford it, I don't really care what the mkt is. and most of the cars I kept were bought at significantly higher than mkt
if I don't like something I just cut it out and sell at whatever I can get.
life is way too short to constantly justify every little thing..
but for now, Costco has charmin on sale. it's Lower than market, I am there with my dully and 42' trailer. I will empty them out
for stuff like toilet paper I do that.
for stuff that I LOVE and not NECESSITY. it's about passion.
if I like it, and I can afford it, I don't really care what the mkt is. and most of the cars I kept were bought at significantly higher than mkt
if I don't like something I just cut it out and sell at whatever I can get.
life is way too short to constantly justify every little thing..
but for now, Costco has charmin on sale. it's Lower than market, I am there with my dully and 42' trailer. I will empty them out
03-07-2019, 12:14 PM
#2127
Rennlist Member
some ppl like to follow the mkt and buy the mkt
for stuff like toilet paper I do that.
for stuff that I LOVE and not NECESSITY. it's about passion.
if I like it, and I can afford it, I don't really care what the mkt is. and most of the cars I kept were bought at significantly higher than mkt
if I don't like something I just cut it out and sell at whatever I can get.
life is way too short to constantly justify every little thing..
but for now, Costco has charmin on sale. it's Lower than market, I am there with my dully and 42' trailer. I will empty them out
for stuff like toilet paper I do that.
for stuff that I LOVE and not NECESSITY. it's about passion.
if I like it, and I can afford it, I don't really care what the mkt is. and most of the cars I kept were bought at significantly higher than mkt
if I don't like something I just cut it out and sell at whatever I can get.
life is way too short to constantly justify every little thing..
but for now, Costco has charmin on sale. it's Lower than market, I am there with my dully and 42' trailer. I will empty them out
Uncertainty and all that.
03-07-2019, 08:58 PM
#2129
Three Wheelin'
03-09-2019, 05:50 PM
#2130
Rennlist Member
Speaking of BaT, nice 7.1 RS listed by a rennlister:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...sche-gt3-rs-9/
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...sche-gt3-rs-9/