Schwabische Auto

Chris,

I'm not bitter, I'm not even upset, I'm just responding to why you are taking so many headslaps on this.

I actually can't believe one would make GTR comparisons to the GT3, it seems the GT3 is far superior to the GTR and the GTR is not even in the same class. I think the better comparison is actually to the M3, however, the M3 does get spanked in the test comparisons I've seen, but it is about 15-20K less money.

However, you would be comparing a 115K vs 85K vs a 70K car in a GT3 vs GTR vs M3 comparison.

I actually find GT3 vs GT3RS or GT3RS vs GT2 comparisons or 997 GT3 vs 996 GT3, etc. comparisons much more interesting.

While the GTR may beat an M3 in the comparisons I ve seen, I certainly do not aspire to owning one as opposed to absolutely aspiring to owning a GT3.

Regards,

Bob Rouleau

Here's a FWIW from a GT3 RS owner. The GTR is one heck of a car for the money. In stock form with the same driver the GTR will show its heels to a 997GT3 in equally stock form including the OEM tires.

I don't know if the transmission failures are quite as represented here. Were the cars "chipped" (flashed really)? It seems to be the popular thing with turbo cars. Were instructions on how to use launch Control followed? I don't know the answers to those questions, but it would not surprise me that GTR owners crying "foul" had either modified the car, or ignored explicit instructions, or both.

In the meantime, I hope that the performance of the GTR causes Porsche to raise the performance bar. Oh, and yes I have driven them both, on the track too. Would I buy a GTR? No. Then again I wouldn't buy a Z06 either, but won't deny the bang-for-the-buck factor.

As to bashing the GTR, I'd like to think we Porsche owners are above that sort of thing.

Best to all,

Schwabische Auto

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjwJl4t-DF8

Looks like a comparison was made between the three. Interesting outcome.

Schwabische Auto

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzEivL1Kruo

Here's part 2, and I still wouldn't buy one... the intangibles

Kit_Chris

Whether the comparison between a GT3 and the GTR is a fair one is a matter for debate, notice that this thread (as many others related to the GTR) was started by a GT3 owner on the GT3 board. There must be some basis for comparison! Is this such an "untenable" position?!

I'm not interested in performance comparisons between the two (I never claimed either was superior), my only interest in this whole affair is challenging the rumors and the inaccuracies which are purported to be self-evident truths. The lament about fanboises is the most amusing of all, they supposedly took over the board, yet I haven't read a single Rennlist post by an outsider coming along to spit in Porsche's face to glory into the GTR. None of the usual contributors are prepared to recognize this, no more than the voluminous evidence that their initial claims regarding the GTR's mechanical weaknesses were anecdotal and groundless. Again, whether this position is "untenable" is for anyone who cares to decide!

Regards,
Chris

eclou

Chris, the complete lack of objectivity in your argument is epic. At least 10 GTR owners on Nagtroc have experienced transmission failures. The ones who have not report high oil temperatures (250-280F) on track. 2 separate owners are reportedly in the discovery phase for a class action lawsuit. Launch control is being eliminated on new cars and retroactively removed from customer cars. Multiple companies are working on stronger gearsets for the GR6, along with improved/magical transmission fluid, and ceramic wheel bearings sprinkled with pixie dust. The only GTR transmission that has been known to be replaced under warranty was the Edmunds press car. All of this info is from GTR owners and GTR tuners who understand that this is not an internet conspiracy by Porsche enthusiasts.

OldGuy

And those are only the GTR owners who can read, write and post! Who knows how many others who have had failures and not reported.

911rox

Fellas, after 12 pages and 170+ posts, only one thing is evident....

"Neither party is going to concede and we are going around in circles...."

Why don't we just let Nissan sort out their trans issues-if they have any?....

and let Porsche show us that they are still number one- by raising the performance bar and posting faster times in the products we share mutual interest in rather than bashing the credibility of others' claims... We want engineering and development, not marketing and politics...

and just leave it at that... no offense to any of the parties involved....

Chris

Kit_Chris

Are you telling me about objectivity?

Let's be objective. Of these 10 GTR owners who reported failure, how many are due (as widely reported in the press and other internet outlets) to the use of repetitive launch control? This has to account somewhere in an objective examination. Nissan announced they will not swap broken boxes under warranty if LC was used repetitively, are you saying they should? And despite the warnings given to buyers? Nissan can be faulted for excessive enthusiasm with this wreckless device, but something has to be said about owner abuse, yet your objective summary (rather conveniently) missed this nuance completely.

Nissan's decision to remove LC, while still not official but sufficiently credible, seems to be limited to some markets where the consumer's legal responsibility is not part of the culture. In any case, it demonstrates the previous point that most or perhaps the entirety of failures are due to this device which we know is being misused and abused by some clueless owners. Whether Nissan will remove LC retroactively or not remains to be seen, it was not part of the widely reported executive statement, although it's probably the right thing to do.

The set of stronger gears you speak about is being developed by an Australian firm hired by Samurai Speed tuner who announced having done over 100 launches with a car generating over 650hp to the wheels. In all objectivity, the need for stronger gear is for heavily tuned cars, certainly not to make up for a stock deficiency as you imply. The same can be said for other upgrades (oil related, never heard of wheel bearings), they are meant to improve the design for specific usage such as drag racing.

Objectivity wants it that the numerous reports of owners tracking their cars without failure of any kind should be part of your summary. As for speculating on unreported failure, this wins the prize, how about the thousands of owners who haven't reported that their box is doing fine months into ownership?

Of course there is no conspiracy, no more than objectivity, in this whole affair!

Regards,
Chris

eclou

Re-read the Nagtroc thread that you seem to be ignoring. There are several owners who claim to have never launched the car, nor gotten any high temp warnings and yet still experienced failures. It is right there for you to continue to ignore. Nissan will read the black box data (which is legally the property of the owners), not share the data with the owners, then proclaim that the data shows cause for warranty denial. While you may find this perfectly acceptable, most enthusiasts see this as a ridiculous and (w)reckless precedent.

Schwabische Auto

whap, whap, the headslaps continue, Chris, you are fighting a losing battle.

///Mous3

Here in the United States of America, many race from trafic lights to trafic lights. Damit!

Warnings? ...by a car manufacturer? It would have less impact than posted maximum speed.

I recall the infamous first-2-years of E46M3 (2001 to 2002)... how many S54 engines and the Differentials were replaced by BMW... (BMW also record the number of launchs on the SMGII equiped cars and that launch feature is not officially available)

American car market is so f-up that how often the car makers bring in their extreme versions? Didn't Porsche lost a law suite for not offering traction control in C-GT?

Nissan should only offer full-manual on GT-R in North America; period.

///Mous3

Is that a fact?

datax

This thread is getting ridiculous that I just needed to contribute.

+1

eclou

yes, similar to the data stored in your cars computer - belongs to the owner of the car. Who else would it belong to? Does anyone have a right to the information stored on your home computer?