USMC_DS1

Dear Ryan, would be good to understand your perspective and more importantly BH Porshe's perspective on providing DME reports to prospective customers.

Zeus993

1+

jgoga

+1

utkinpol

Gosh, guys, leave that Ryan alone... He is car salesman, what do you want from him?
Our grudge is with PCNA, not with anybody from a dealership. Dealer does not decide on engine warranty status anyway, it is corporate that really deserves a good blown up lawsuit compared to ones against Toyota or GM.

All Ryan or any dealer thinks now is how to sell 991, they do not care about M96/M97 motors grenading in old 997.1 cars. For them it is like those car even never existed, and we keep talking of DME scans, sniff tests, signs of tar on left pipe, while it is just bad motor design that cannot sustain track stress for long.
Prey and hope cylinder will not crack, rod bolts will not brake, IMS bearing will not fall apart and keep some $20k in reserve for new motor as corporate Porsche does not give a damn.

krysFly

i really do not understand why you own a 997. Every chance you get you cry how bad this car is. Sorry, please don't be offended, I just don't get it, why would you drive a car that in your mind is a ticking bomb? Please explain.

BevHillsPorsche

While I generally prefer that business matters like this be handled in private and not in a public forum, you've posted an issue and the best thing that I can do is provide you with a response.

I remember your request for DME reports and all I can do it apologize that I didn't give you the service that you were looking for. If you'd like to continue reading I'll share with you my point of view and the situation that we were dealing with at the time.

When I list cars for sale on eBay I try to do so with as much information as possible. Whenever I advertise a car I spend on average 1 hour creating the ad, taking the pictures and video, uploading them to various websites and looking up all pertinent information specific to the car in question. I think that if you look at the listings I produce from my own personal website and compare them with those that come from our main dealer page that you'll find that I have 2 - 3x the pictures, I often include a 3 minute video available in 1080p resolution and I also load the full 12mp images to my flickr page. I also show all the options on the car and typically there are carfax reports attached as well.

To give you a comparison of the work I do take a look at this 2011 Porsche 911 Turbo S Cabriolet as an example. The first link shows the car displayed on our main dealer website, the second is from my own and I think you'll find that the information I provide is quite a bit more detailed than the usual ads seen on the main dealer site.

2011 Turbo S Cabriolet at www.beverlyhillsporsche.com
http://www.beverlyhillsporsche.com/c...f89de63fdc.htm


2011 Turbo S Cabriolet at www.porsche-connection.com
http://www.porsche-connection.com/20...-90211/3966943

I think you'll find that I try to show you every aspect of the car in as much detail as possible. Occasionally the information someone might need is not listed in the ad and of course I'm going to do my best to get the customer that information they need to make the right decision on their next Porsche car.

While I have access to all of our CPO inspection reports and can often reference them as soon as a question is asked, we don't typically include DME reports in our CPO binders. I don't know if this is normal procedure or not at other Porsche stores, but in the 1,000 or so of CPO cars that I've had in the past 2 years I think I've seen a DME print out in the binder on only one occasion. Whether or not it should be in the report is another issue, the fact of the matter is that if you want the report I am happy to get it but it requires that I take the car off the line, drive it to my service department 5 miles away and wait while I get a tech to access it. That 5 mile trip can depending on the time of day take up to 30 minutes. All in all it is an investment of my time and one that I’m happy to do had I gotten some more information from you.

Because we are the largest volume dealer in the country and have traditionally been a new car store, we have to move our pre-owned inventory quickly. We typically have about 40 pre-owned cars in stock at any one time but with lease returns and trade ins we probably see another 100 other cars come and go through the dealership every single month. Because of this we will send some of our slower moving cars to auction to either sell or get a bottom line number on what they’re worth at any given time. In this particular case you inquired about a car that I photographed (There were a minimum of 40 pictures in the ad) and listed online. In the course of our discussion the car was taken to a local dealer auction and at the time I simply did not have access to the car. I told you that the car would run in a dealer auction in the next few days because in our market manual transmission cars are a slower seller than PDK and even Tiptronic. I believe that that car also had about 40,000 miles and is not typically a car that we have as much success with like we do with other lower mileage cars. I tried to be very upfront with you about this but unless I have a commitment to buy at a number that makes sense, I can't ask my used car manager to pull the car from auction, truck it back to the dealership to run a report on a car that we may or may not sell and by doing so miss the opportunity to turn the car over at auction to clear up space for other models. I can understand why you might have felt that this was just a "typical car salesmen pitch" to get you to commit, but in this very unique circumstance that was what I was dealing with. Ultimately I believe the car did sell at that auction the next day (Thursday) and I think you lost out on a really nicely optioned car at an aggressive price and I missed out on a potential sale and customer. In this situation neither of us won.

I don't disagree with you that the request for a DME is a fair and a simple enough one to accommodate. In order for me to justify spending the 2-3 hours it was going to take to get what you'd asked for I wanted to know where you were with respect to price on this particular car. I thought that that was a reasonable request and the reason I asked it was to see that we were in the same ballpark one way or the other. I don't recall all the details of the car or the ad but I do remember that the car was Silver or Grey and that it has sport seats and full leather trim. Typicaly we list cars on eBay with $100 starting bid and an undisclosed reserves but this car might have been listed with a “Buy-It-Now or Best Offer” price. I wanted to see where you were in regards to budget and what your expectations were regarding price. If we're far off what from what you were ultimately willing to pay for the car then that fact that it has 0 or 100,000 overrevs is irrelevant. Had I known that we're close on the car I would have had the car pulled from auction, taken directly to my service department and given you the information you requested and the additional pictures that you asked for. I asked you for some type of commitment to justify going to my boss to do that and I think you just assumed I was trying to rush you. Unfortunately our communication stopped at that point and I like you moved onto other prospects.

Again, I apologize that this left such a bad taste in your mouth, that was never the intention. You had a request and I asked for some type of commitment from you and neither of us got what we wanted. I want you and anyone else to know that I am not trying to hide anything, quite the contrary that's the reason the listings that I spend quite a lot of time to produce have the detail that they do and the number of pictures that they do. I want to show you everything because I believe it helps to elevate our cars and show you what you’re really getting. Because this job is a constant battle of time management, in this instance I made the decision that based on the discussions that we had to that point that I couldn't afford to take the time to do what you had asked me to based on the information that you had given me about you and your upcoming purchase. Right or wrong what happened left you disappointed and if you still want to discuss this I will provide you with a number to contact senior management about this and see if we can help you out. I'm here to build trust and relationships and I'm sorry that we didn't give you the experience that you were looking for.

Again, if you'd like to continue this discussion I think this is best solved offline and I invite you to contact me or one of my managers and we'll do whatever we can to make you happy, that’s our number 1 goal. You can reach John George or Jeff Lamont today at 310 557-2472 or if you prefer to discuss this via e-mail I can send you their contact information in a PM.

With regards to DME reports:
I know that DME reports are a common topic of discussion on Rennlist and other enthusiast boards, while those here might thing that it's common knowledge I have to tell you that in all the time I've listed and sold cars I've been approached about DME reports by maybe 4 or 5 different people. Often times I will bring up the subject to those that might be considering another car from a non franchise dealer. Regardless of how often it's discussed here on the boards, it's not something that comes up and when it does we're more than happy to address it. Typically I can tell someone that the over-rev report is a regular part of the 111 point CPO inspection process and that if there are any irregularities we don't certify the car. That generally resolves the situation but if more detail is required we’re happy to provide it. It's generally (although not always) GT3's and Turbo buyers that ask about the over-revs. You were the first and still only customer who's ever asked about over revs on a Carrera so although it's not something that's out of line, it is what I consider an odd request based on my personal experience.

I have on average 150 - 160 cars in inventory at any one time and receive close to 100 e-mails every single day. I do my best to help those that request it and work with me but occasionally something falls through the cracks. I believe that your experience is the exception and not the rule and I hope that moving forward we can have the opportunity to assist you again.

I hope that we can have the opportunity to address any future issues offline. I think that's the best and most professional thing to do moving forward. I'd also like to ask the moderators for their help get us back on track here.

Respectfully,

utkinpol

It is still a cheapest best choice available, that's why. Every car has its issues. But speaking of M96/M97 issues - I did not know about most of it until I dumped more that $20k into these car making it track worthy. In 2009 it was an assumption that new 2006 IMS bearing design was good and practically immortal. Rod bolts issue was not yet as apparent as it became now after many motors destroyed due to accumulated stress there. Only time truly sorts that stuff out.

And I do not say it is a bad car.
Bad is a corporate attitude of Porsche toward inherited problems owners have on those motors as if you get a crack on a 6th cylinder sleeve as original gasket was altered to be unified and does not let enouth coolant there and cylinder is overheated - it is not a reason to make customer pay for that full price when motor goes. It must be a recall and a fix. Etc.

In my situation I just accept possible danger and I believe it is cheaper for me to buy/rebuild this 3.6l motor than to get car to stock, sell it, then buy new car, GTS or GT3 and then rebuild it.
In the end it is just all about money.

sfo

credit and respect to Ryan for his comprehensive and forthright answer.

McCulla

Ryan, I don't know you and you don't know me. That said, I want to add my 2 cents in response to your last post. I owned my own small business for nearly 30 years and the survival of that business and the financial well being of my family and my employees depended on top flight customer service in a very competetive marketplace. This business was a service business and was performed totally face to face (literally), no phone/email/social media, etc. transactions. With that experience as my backdrop, I have to tell you that the long presentation that you just gave regarding the interaction you had with eflight sounds to me as if you really don't need our business. You make several statements about how huge your inventory is, the extreme email traffic that you have to juggle, the difficulty of working a 5 mile drive to your service shop into your busy day, the relative "undesirability" of a 40K mile car, etc. and, to me, all this does is convince me that you have TOO MUCH business. With the description of your work load, I personally would assume that you absolutely do not have the time to devote the attention that I feel I would like to have if I am considering spending $40-$75K in your business. I read your post as an excuse, but that is just my opinion and I want to emphatically state that it is just my opinion. (I suppose it may be appropriate to mention that I have owned 8 Porsches. 6 were purchased from various dealers around the US--Illinois/PA/FL/NE and 2 were purchased used--one from California and one from Illinois. These purchases span the time from 1987 to the present). Good luck.

krysFly

great response, I understand and I appreciate your knowledge of the car.
Cheers.

eflight

Ryan , I have no desire to take this further, whats the point ?

You posted that you are a different kind of used car salesman, my experience leads me to believe you are no better than anyone other salesman.

If I had to make a commitment on the car to get a couple of pictures of seat wear then I must not have really mattered as a customer. You took more time writing up your response today then it would have taken you to take the pictures in the first place.

You had your chance to show how great you are and you blew it, simple as that.

Have a nice day

utkinpol

yeah... i think i will eventually rebuild my motor at a race shop. will see. with age it all will even up, just as it became now with 968 and earlier cars - people reuse same body, replace engines, rebuild them, 997.1 has good enough chassis, i find suspension extremely capable, if corporate policy will not drive cost of replacement parts for gearboxes and motors beyond anything practical common sense would accept then I see no reason why not to continue using this tub and just repair it as parts wear out.

like, look at 996 spec race cars now - they are based from 996 C2 street cars, light enough, still cheap enough, run great, are quite competitive and, honestly, for an amateur it is a LOT of a car which runs lap times almost comparable to 996 cup car and is way cheaper to maintain.

corporate policy on motors still sux. they should have done something about issues everybody know about, i just reject to accept it as an honest business practice when a company like LN engineering charges $20K+ to rebuild those motors and all they do to make them almost indestructible is to replace rods, rod bolts, put in better cylinder sleeves that do not crack, cut a bigger hole in the gasket , put in ceramic IMS bearing and some other stuff, essentially we speak here about merely $5K more in cost for _parts_ for same motor design and it remedies 90% of any possible issues this motor may have.

I see no reason why factory does not recall those motors every 40k miles to change damn IMS bearing and rod bolts if they KNOW those parts accumulate stress, wear out and brake and then cause a catastrophic engine failure. To make customer to pick up the whole bill for this crap after car goes off warranty is beyound belief. it is not right and would not be possible with honda, toyota, any big brand you can imagine but somehow Porsche does it just fine. go figure.

krysFly

I fully agree, I wanted to make my 997 a track car, but for all the reasons mentioned above I am looking for a 996 gt3 instead.

Graygoose997

A good salesman knows how to separate a prospect from a suspect.
Suspects drain your energy, and prevent you from devoting time to a real potential customer.
Suspects are never quite satisfied, and are the first to complain ....loudly.
A price conscious, demanding and suspicious customer, sending an e mail, from across the country , is a suspect.
Did you indicate that you were a ready buyer, and all that remained was a positive DME to seal the deal..or was the DME what you needed to start the process of negotiation, and nit picking?
E mail is easy and free, as is slamming this guy in a public forum for doing nothing but showing common sense.

No one wants to turn away business, but after a while you learn when to walk away, and refer "customers" to your worst competitor, and let him play the losing game.

I'd say he did the right thing.

utkinpol

It is wise. May be I should do same but I am too lazy to redo it all. Plus with each coming year my C2 depreciates more and more while gt3 - not so much (for reason). And as I cannot move my suspension into any 996 car I am pretty much stuck, for now.

If you find clean 996 or 997 gt3 car and you can afford it - buy it.
GTS is also nice as it seems but they are still pretty expensive.