zanwar

A concerted effort to label the unique qualities of the new car (longer wheelbase, wider front track, smoother ride, smoother steering, updated interior) as defects in the pure 911 character has been going on for years now. A couple of backhanded statements on how the new car is a better performer doesn't change that.

Mike in CA

Tony, you have always expressed your preference without prejudice (although others sometimes have not), and I was clearly not referring to you.

I love the 911 and have owned one for 25 years. I wouldn't own another sports car; I tried briefly twice, once with an E36 M3 and again with a Boxster S and came back each time. Still, I realize that the car is not perfect. I appreciate the advantages of the rear engine flat 6 (outstanding traction, beneficial weight transfer under braking, low center of gravity) but understand that having all that weight at the tail end of the car is not optimal for handling or high speed stability. To their great credit, IMO, Porsche has stuck with what is basically an anachronistic layout for the sake of tradition and has made it work as well as the most modern designs. But the changes required to do that, between the early swing axles and the modern multilink suspensions, between tire sizes, wheelbases and other suspension tweaks, steering and brakes, have been enormous. The incremental steps taken with the 991 are nothing compared to the changes that have happened over the years since the 356 and first 911's.

I simply don't look at the "soul" of the 911 or Porsche as something that's frozen in time or epitomized by a single characteristic. For me, it's about the way Porsche has always worked to keep it's tradition modern and up to date. That requires change and the 991 is another step in the evolution. And it's the first step. We've seen one model so far; others appealing to those at different places in the sports car spectrum will appear over the next few years. As you know, personally I'm in line for a 991 GT3; I think it will hit my sweet spot.

It's a fine line between quirk and fault. Kind of like the difference between potato-potahto, no?

alexb76

BAM! sooo funny people try to discredit folks who they disagree with!

alexb76

Mike, the thing is, you just cannot accept that some aspects of 991 is TRULY negative for *some folks*... the steering, the wider front-end, looks, interior, etc... I am sure there are reasons for all of those decisions, you tend to agree with Porsche reasoning, some disagree. Those decisions by Porsche have made 991 attractive for some, and not so much for others and that's the end of it!

I just came back from a 2-weeks business trip in Germany, and drove a C180 C-class at 220-230 Km/h on highways on winter tires (dumb I know, but couldn't resist to push it once or twice, mostly was doing 160-170 though). I sure hope I had my 997 to do similar or higher speed, 997 car is SOLID, I've done 260 Km/h on the 997, and yes the front end gets a bit light, but it's absolutely nothing close to be an issue that needed fixing in 991. To me, the electrical steering is by far the WORST decision on 991, and pretty much the nail in the coffin for me... but you like it? good for u!

Mike in CA

Alex, just the opposite. I completely accept that someone else might be unhappy with the 991. Just don't repeat it over and over every time someone else says something positive about the car, and refrain from referring to people with a generally positive impression of the 991 as uninitiated posers and latte drinkers. You've seen the posts, you know what I'm talking about.

IMO, the issue with the steering issue has been blown hugely out of proportion. Virtually all of the magazine and other independent tests I've seen of the car have talked about how the steering is quite good, and gives ample feedback. Yet some people here act as though it has ruined the car. My expectation is that Porsche will continue to refine it's performance and by the time the GT models are out even the hard core dissenters will have come around, at least to some extent. It would just be nice if everyone unbunched their panties about this.

ADias

But that is the nature of an open Internet forum. Someone posts about something and people reply, agreeing or disagreeing. Open debate is good. Forums should not be single-idea/single-party rule. There are no winners or losers. There are POVs. What is wrong is to fight dissent and enter into personal attacks (as some are prone to do around here).

unclejosh

Guys,

Was at Barnes and Noble perusing the mags tonight and read the comprehensive criticism of the new "UnPorsche" in the April Issue of EVO.

Both 3.4 and 3.8 L 991 were criticized in the same fashion as many of the stalwart and erudite Rennlist posters have in this thread and others.......

Worth a read!

UJ

Mike in CA

Open debate is good. Pavlovian response whenever someone says something that you disagree with....less so. Whatever, maybe that is the nature of an Internet forum. But surely you know what I'm referring to. This 997/991 debate is a mirror image of the MT/PDK conflict which produced (and still produces) so much subjective baloney and rigid thinking, and which I'm quite certain you have taken exception to on many occasions.

VGM911

+1

Waxer

Well now that my cover is blown Austin Powers let's be clear I want a kagilianbazillion dollars wired to my Swiss account by tomorrow or I will fire my giant 997 laazur on every 991 thread perpetuating hate for the 991

First let's be clear, I never said I hate the 991 or that it was not a worthy successor to the 997. There are aspects I like and those I don't.

Second, the use word "prejudice" to describe those that have dared to voice their criticisms is misplaced. Everyone has prejudices and biases. When you order Pepsi instead of Coke you are being prejudiced. If you prefer red heads to blondes you are being prejudice etc.. Why is preferring the 997 for some not the same form of exercised prejudice? Why is the prejudice of 991 lovers good prejudice and 997 preference bad prejudice even on the 997 forum no less?

Third why do the 991 fans here care so much what 997 owners are saying over here on the 997 forum?

Fourth. Why aren't you showing the same upset over on the 991
forum about their exaggerated boasts of superiority of the 991 and how they made the right decision? I mean isn't it enough already? Why are they allowed to like the 991 better and many of us either can't like the 997 better or are lying about it?

Fifth, respected Porsche journalists have criticized the 991 and have echoed some of the sentiments as us evils doers. Why aren't you busting their Ballz?

Finally, many auto makers look for and value feed back both + and - including Porsche from there base and enthusiasts.

Now if you will excuse me, I have to go find my mini me.

Mike in CA

prej·u·dice: (1) a preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge.

Just to keep things in perspective since you brought it up and I happened to use the word prejudice: When you choose Pepsi over Coke you are presumably basing your choice on personal experience and preference. That's not prejudice. Expressing an opinion about the 991, assuming you have adequate information and experience, is also not prejudicial. Making uninformed judgments about someone's motivation for liking the 991, as several people have done here repeatedly, is prejudicial.

Waxer

Thank you Mike. That underscores my point since the majority of "evil doer" statements were based on seeing the car in person and driving it which would be the bases for a " bias".

When someone says they like the 991 better I don't think anything other beyond that they like it better but To the contrary when guys here say they like their 997 better they are lying or making themselves feel better that they didn't wait for the 991. How does that work again?



UJ: bingo. I'm sure Vern, boolala and the gang are firing off nasty emails to Evo and canceling their subscriptions as I type.

ljpviper

IMO, the issue with the steering issue has been blown hugely out of proportion. Virtually all of the magazine and other independent tests I've seen of the car have talked about how the steering is quite good, and gives ample feedback. Yet some people here act as though it has ruined the car. My expectation is that Porsche will continue to refine it's performance and by the time the GT models are out even the hard core dissenters will have come around, at least to some extent. It would just be nice if everyone unbunched their panties about this.


Mike, I disagree with your statement above. How many of these journalists own 911's and drive them as often as us. Thats a blanket statement, if the steering is not a big deal you would have had minimal complaints. These are not minimal complaints on all these forums.

GSIRM3

Good point. It does seem that some, especially Vern, think that any of us that like our 997 better (this especially applies to GTS owners for some reason) are living in a fantasy world where we hide our secret lust for a 991, and try and convince ourselves that we like the 997 or GTS better. That just can't be. How could anyone possibly prefer a 997 or GTS over a 991?

I think I am going to slash my wrists and put myself out of my GTS/wish I had a 991, misery.

Quadcammer

And yet people are making decisions about the 991's steering after 15 minute test drives?

Amazing how things go both ways