991 NOT FOR ME
04-14-2012, 10:15 PM
#136
Rennlist Member
I didn't mention the 991's speed as a reason to buy it, say faster was better, nor did I say speed trumped everything else. I made a simple statement of fact in response to questions about it's Ring time and whether they were faked. I agree that there are other reasons to buy a car, and that's why I wouldn't buy a Viper or GTR and why, apparently, you wouldn't buy a 991. As to your opinion of what Porsche should have done, those points have been made a few dozen times; I get it.
Cheers!
04-15-2012, 01:53 PM
#137
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Regardless of your reference to "at really high speed", you very clearly peg 35mph as the upper limit of "charming" in reference to the 997's steering. If you didn't mean to imply that, then I suggest rather than try to smokescreen your communication skills deficiencies with ludicrous personal attacks, you instead channel your energy into efforts at improving them.
04-15-2012, 03:29 PM
#138
Race Director
Regardless of your reference to "at really high speed", you very clearly peg 35mph as the upper limit of "charming" in reference to the 997's steering. If you didn't mean to imply that, then I suggest rather than try to smokescreen your communication skills deficiencies with ludicrous personal attacks, you instead channel your energy into efforts at improving them.
Last edited by Mike in CA; 04-15-2012 at 08:18 PM.
04-15-2012, 05:34 PM
#139
Drifting
I haven't driven one, but was invited to the unveiling at my dealership and loved everything I "saw" other than the hidden engine. I was also invited to take an S out for a rip and I am 3 on the TT allocation list. I just might have to take that S test drive up and compare notes w/ the OP. I have the true "go cart" 3.2 and @ 997.2. Both excite the senses in there own distinctive way.
04-15-2012, 06:31 PM
#140
Rennlist Member
I think we should end this thread/debate. I am definitely interested in actual reviews, and I will post mine shortly... but I think we have clearly concluded that 991 is NOT for some whom some of the Porsche decisions are questionable, while it does work for others who like the changes... and that's what makes a market! 
04-15-2012, 08:19 PM
#141
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Try again. I said it was charming at 35mph less so at 130+, in no way implying that 35 is an upper limit, but rather a reference point at which the feedback in the wheel is enjoyable. Any reasonable person would focus on my defining 130+ as the limit, not 35. Besides, after your last misrepresentation of what I wrote, I explained that you had misunderstood my point, yet you chose to misrepresent it again. Why, unless you are simply trolling? Lame, Palmbeacher, but expected. This grows tiresome.
If I am trolling, I seem to have snagged a minnow
04-15-2012, 09:20 PM
#142
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If you boys spent as much time driving your Porsche cars as you do bickering about them like spoiled school girls........you'd for one, enjoy them more.......and two, make Rennlist a happier place.
Clearly, the new breed of Porsche owner has more $$$ than sense.
Clearly, the new breed of Porsche owner has more $$$ than sense.
04-15-2012, 10:09 PM
#143
Nordschleife Master
I drive my GTS every day. Has nothing to do with discussing topics of interest.
Mike, as Ronald Reagan once said..trust but verify. I am skeptical of the claimed times. Yes, I am sure the 991 is fast. I would expect and hope for nothing less from Porsche. Every mfg has an obvious axe to grind in posting performance figures.
What performance options if any did the 991 have that posted the claimed Ring times? Was it an apples to apples comparison?
Mike, as Ronald Reagan once said..trust but verify. I am skeptical of the claimed times. Yes, I am sure the 991 is fast. I would expect and hope for nothing less from Porsche. Every mfg has an obvious axe to grind in posting performance figures.
What performance options if any did the 991 have that posted the claimed Ring times? Was it an apples to apples comparison?
04-15-2012, 10:11 PM
#144
Race Director
Waxer, I believe the 991 at the Ring was equipped with the usual performance options. I read somewhere that it had PDCC, PASM, and PTV.
Last edited by Mike in CA; 04-15-2012 at 10:46 PM.
04-16-2012, 12:00 PM
#146
Drifting
e-systems - how safe are they? really
I served in Marine Aviation for several tours of duty. One thing our pilots were grateful of was the use of hydraulic vs. e-systems for their flight control (aerial control surfaces, rudder, etc) on the F-18. Conversely many other fighters were being fitted with fly by wire at the time - although it sounded hi-tech/tacticool and all that... very few liked the idea of depending on a few wires to get them back home. These concerns were further elevated after reports of F-16s going down due to fraying of wires within their flight control systems after years of service. So e-control systems were a big controversy within the aviation community as well for it's safety concerns. Although a Porsche is not a jet fighter... I know some here drive it like one through canyon runs and HPDE's. After all why buy one if your intents are otherwise. A wire failing at speed on a critical system like steering is... well, a concern to be evaluated and reviewed over time. I would not want to be the 1st generation “guinea pig” drivers for such a system especially in the 1st MY models... and definitely not after several years of wear and tear.
The reality is that these e-systems seem to be the future direction in aviation and now the automotive industry is moving towards this direction as well. They are cheaper, re-programmable, and ultimately a disposable systems. I expect it won't stop with e-steering so get ready for e-brake, e-engine(battery powered), e-everything... much of the e-controls are due to necessity within aviation. The F-117A(stealth fighter/bomber really), for example, cannot be flown by mere mortals so a computer system must intervene on the behalf of the pilot. E-steering on a 911 allows the car to make fine adjustments towards these controls systems and for Porsche to reprogram and apply updates as warranted. I work in development within the IT industry now for a large software/hardware systems manufacturer… the thought of relying on MSFT or any programmer, for that matter, to affect my steering input is concerning to say the least. May be OK for engine management(cut off bad) but steering failure/mis-direction is potentially deadly. It's common sense/knowledge within aviation that e-systems are the most likely to fail, followed by hydraulics, then mechanical systems. Just consider how problematic your BT or GPS systems have been. Now consider how often you've experienced a hydraulic system failure(brake and/or steering of old). Oh yeah, I'm sure electronic brakes are coming as well... it's already here on the hand brake for the 991. Rule of thumb within the IT world – skip the 1st rev, let others bleed on it, wait for rev 2 when the bugs are worked out. Generally a good rule in life but especially critical when a new buggy e-steering system could mean the difference between life and death. Only time will tell… how often have we all seen this show.
The reality is that these e-systems seem to be the future direction in aviation and now the automotive industry is moving towards this direction as well. They are cheaper, re-programmable, and ultimately a disposable systems. I expect it won't stop with e-steering so get ready for e-brake, e-engine(battery powered), e-everything... much of the e-controls are due to necessity within aviation. The F-117A(stealth fighter/bomber really), for example, cannot be flown by mere mortals so a computer system must intervene on the behalf of the pilot. E-steering on a 911 allows the car to make fine adjustments towards these controls systems and for Porsche to reprogram and apply updates as warranted. I work in development within the IT industry now for a large software/hardware systems manufacturer… the thought of relying on MSFT or any programmer, for that matter, to affect my steering input is concerning to say the least. May be OK for engine management(cut off bad) but steering failure/mis-direction is potentially deadly. It's common sense/knowledge within aviation that e-systems are the most likely to fail, followed by hydraulics, then mechanical systems. Just consider how problematic your BT or GPS systems have been. Now consider how often you've experienced a hydraulic system failure(brake and/or steering of old). Oh yeah, I'm sure electronic brakes are coming as well... it's already here on the hand brake for the 991. Rule of thumb within the IT world – skip the 1st rev, let others bleed on it, wait for rev 2 when the bugs are worked out. Generally a good rule in life but especially critical when a new buggy e-steering system could mean the difference between life and death. Only time will tell… how often have we all seen this show.
04-16-2012, 12:54 PM
#147
Race Director
PDCC Porsche Dynamic Chassis Control (adjustable sway bars)
PTV Porsche Torque Vectoring (brakes inside rear wheel for quicker turn in)
PASM You know this one
Before you say it, admittedly the new car has options and standard performance features (more HP, lighter weight, wider track, etc) that the old car doesn't. The new stuff is what makes the 991 different, and if you're going to exclude some or all of it in an effort to compare "apples to apples" there's little point in comparing the two cars at all. How's this; from everything I've read a base 991S is faster than a base 997S/GTS and a 991S with all available performance options is faster than a 997S/GTS with all available performance options. If you delete, mix, and match options and features, who knows?
PTV Porsche Torque Vectoring (brakes inside rear wheel for quicker turn in)
PASM You know this one
Before you say it, admittedly the new car has options and standard performance features (more HP, lighter weight, wider track, etc) that the old car doesn't. The new stuff is what makes the 991 different, and if you're going to exclude some or all of it in an effort to compare "apples to apples" there's little point in comparing the two cars at all. How's this; from everything I've read a base 991S is faster than a base 997S/GTS and a 991S with all available performance options is faster than a 997S/GTS with all available performance options. If you delete, mix, and match options and features, who knows?
04-16-2012, 01:04 PM
#148
Race Director
I served in Marine Aviation for several tours of duty. One thing our pilots were grateful of was the use of hydraulic vs. e-systems for their flight control (aerial control surfaces, rudder, etc) on the F-18. Conversely many other fighters were being fitted with fly by wire at the time - although it sounded hi-tech/tacticool and all that... very few liked the idea of depending on a few wires to get them back home. These concerns were further elevated after reports of F-16s going down due to fraying of wires within their flight control systems after years of service. So e-control systems were a big controversy within the aviation community as well for it's safety concerns. Although a Porsche is not a jet fighter... I know some here drive it like one through canyon runs and HPDE's. After all why buy one if your intents are otherwise. A wire failing at speed on a critical system like steering is... well, a concern to be evaluated and reviewed over time. I would not want to be the 1st generation “guinea pig” drivers for such a system especially in the 1st MY models... and definitely not after several years of wear and tear.
The reality is that these e-systems seem to be the future direction in aviation and now the automotive industry is moving towards this direction as well. They are cheaper, re-programmable, and ultimately a disposable systems. I expect it won't stop with e-steering so get ready for e-brake, e-engine(battery powered), e-everything... much of the e-controls are due to necessity within aviation. The F-117A(stealth fighter/bomber really), for example, cannot be flown by mere mortals so a computer system must intervene on the behalf of the pilot. E-steering on a 911 allows the car to make fine adjustments towards these controls systems and for Porsche to reprogram and apply updates as warranted. I work in development within the IT industry now for a large software/hardware systems manufacturer… the thought of relying on MSFT or any programmer, for that matter, to affect my steering input is concerning to say the least. May be OK for engine management(cut off bad) but steering failure/mis-direction is potentially deadly. It's common sense/knowledge within aviation that e-systems are the most likely to fail, followed by hydraulics, then mechanical systems. Just consider how problematic your BT or GPS systems have been. Now consider how often you've experienced a hydraulic system failure(brake and/or steering of old). Oh yeah, I'm sure electronic brakes are coming as well... it's already here on the hand brake for the 991. Rule of thumb within the IT world – skip the 1st rev, let others bleed on it, wait for rev 2 when the bugs are worked out. Generally a good rule in life but especially critical when a new buggy e-steering system could mean the difference between life and death. Only time will tell… how often have we all seen this show.
The reality is that these e-systems seem to be the future direction in aviation and now the automotive industry is moving towards this direction as well. They are cheaper, re-programmable, and ultimately a disposable systems. I expect it won't stop with e-steering so get ready for e-brake, e-engine(battery powered), e-everything... much of the e-controls are due to necessity within aviation. The F-117A(stealth fighter/bomber really), for example, cannot be flown by mere mortals so a computer system must intervene on the behalf of the pilot. E-steering on a 911 allows the car to make fine adjustments towards these controls systems and for Porsche to reprogram and apply updates as warranted. I work in development within the IT industry now for a large software/hardware systems manufacturer… the thought of relying on MSFT or any programmer, for that matter, to affect my steering input is concerning to say the least. May be OK for engine management(cut off bad) but steering failure/mis-direction is potentially deadly. It's common sense/knowledge within aviation that e-systems are the most likely to fail, followed by hydraulics, then mechanical systems. Just consider how problematic your BT or GPS systems have been. Now consider how often you've experienced a hydraulic system failure(brake and/or steering of old). Oh yeah, I'm sure electronic brakes are coming as well... it's already here on the hand brake for the 991. Rule of thumb within the IT world – skip the 1st rev, let others bleed on it, wait for rev 2 when the bugs are worked out. Generally a good rule in life but especially critical when a new buggy e-steering system could mean the difference between life and death. Only time will tell… how often have we all seen this show.
04-16-2012, 01:43 PM
#150
Nordschleife Master
Mike: : You anticipated where I was going. Exactly.
Apples to apples the time differences very likely not as much as Porsche has led us to believe.
The PTV and PDCC are substantial techno nannies that make a substantial difference. The Ring times really then show what the new chasis with these new super techno nannies can do. Not the driver mind you, the car.
If we put PDCC and PTV in a 997S or even better a GTS then what?
I want to see a Mano a mano compro. I sure the 991S will likely turn some better times but I'm willing to bet a beer there not as substantial as you might think.
Apples to apples the time differences very likely not as much as Porsche has led us to believe.
The PTV and PDCC are substantial techno nannies that make a substantial difference. The Ring times really then show what the new chasis with these new super techno nannies can do. Not the driver mind you, the car.
If we put PDCC and PTV in a 997S or even better a GTS then what?
I want to see a Mano a mano compro. I sure the 991S will likely turn some better times but I'm willing to bet a beer there not as substantial as you might think.