991 NOT FOR ME
04-12-2012, 06:28 PM
#121
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Porsche is indeed lucky to have such an erudite apologist...perhaps worthy of ten less-articulate chaps with contrary opinions...nonetheless that's still ten customers to one they may very well sacrifice. Clearly they've taken that into consideration...so, if I may...
If you're saying the engine location is the main distinction between the 991 and a 2-door Panamera, I'm inclined to agree.
It's not merely the gauche aesthetics that irks me as much as what it says about Porsche's mindset that they felt the need to suddenly plaster the car like a billboard. Someone said if they didn't know the 991 was a Porsche he couldn't tell by driving it, and I concur. Excessive badging seems to be Porsche's answer to maintaining brand identity.
I politely disagree with that dross. In the 997 there's very little drop in RPM 4-5 and 5-6, which my engineering background tells me means both 5 and 6 could be lengthened without touching 1-4.
Nothing is fail-proof. Mechanical backup systems however are still considered less failure-prone when properly maintained. This is why modern aeroplanes still have manually-operated mechanical backup to actuate the wing flaps and lower the landing gear should the electronics or hydraulics fail. Electronic parking brakes are in the same vein as pressbutton start/kill switchgear: gimmicks to delight ignorant consumers.
The benefit is singularly that it is cheaper to re-use the same basic interior design utilising the same switchgear across as many models as possible.
Unfortunately the intended potency of your sarcasm is neutered by its irrelevance. Those performance improvements are to the credit of the engineers, and which alone would have made the 991 unquestionably, inarguably brilliant. The bean counters and marketeers simply mucked it up with a few foolish bodges.
Duh.
If by "rationale" you mean "rationalisation", then I would agree.
If by "thoroughly modern" you mean "increasingly generic", then I would agree.
The issue of the cost of a complete end to end swap of the drivetrain aside, then it would no longer be a 911 but rather a kind of 2-door Panamera.
I grant you this is a cosmetic issue and totally subjective, but not completely inconsistent with past historic Porsche model designations with ample lettering. Besides, you can just delete the extra labeling.
They've added significant fuel saving overdrive ability. The 997 is capable of reaching it's top speed in 6th gear. If you stretched 6th to the same overall gearing as the new 7th that would no longer be possible and 5th gear would have to be reworked for top speed. Unfortunately the spacing between all of the lower gears would then be widened and acceleration would be compromised. It's a bit more complicated than "merely tweaking".
Personally, I prefer a pull up handbrake, but there are savings in weight and cost with the electrical E-brake. We can argue over whether they are worth it. One point though; mechanical E-brakes aren't fail safe. Cables break and linkages bind and fail. It would be interesting to see reliability data on the two types of brake but my bet would be that Porsche and other manufacturers don't feel they've gone to a less reliable system.
Again, a subjective cosmetic issue. If one doesn't like the new layout, there's nothing to be said. I imagine Porsche feels there is benefit identity wise and from a manufacturing standpoint in having similar interior themes among all of their cars.
And yet somehow the car has significantly improved in virtually all objective measures of performance. Those bean counters and marketeers really lucked out.
I hear your and other's concerns with the new car, but in general I don't share them.
I can see a rationale for virtually every change that was made.
When the time comes for me to part with my 997.2 I'm comfortable with the fact that a thoroughly modern new 911 will be waiting.
04-12-2012, 07:27 PM
#123
Drifting
Got to a 3.4 manual base car 7 speed over the weekend. I currently drive an 05 6speed carrera. I did not like it at all.
-- steering was numb compared to 997. I miss the twitchy go cart feel. Thats what a 911 is supposed to be.
-- did not like seating position.Felt like a 928 s4 i had. No forward facing feel. Miss the openess of my car in the interior.
-- the engine felt sluggish even in sport mode. Dont know if the gearing had something to do with it. Mine felt more responsive.
-- also like seeing the flat front, no fenders when driving
overall is car was smooth but felt blahh. The interior was good quality as was the rest of the car. I have had numerous older aircooled 911/turbos and always felt the 997 provided a similar feel with plenty of creature comforts, the perfect 911.
i may try to find a 2010 GT3 as a keeper. The 911 series ended at the 997 at least for me it did.
thanks but no thanks
-- steering was numb compared to 997. I miss the twitchy go cart feel. Thats what a 911 is supposed to be.
-- did not like seating position.Felt like a 928 s4 i had. No forward facing feel. Miss the openess of my car in the interior.
-- the engine felt sluggish even in sport mode. Dont know if the gearing had something to do with it. Mine felt more responsive.
-- also like seeing the flat front, no fenders when driving
overall is car was smooth but felt blahh. The interior was good quality as was the rest of the car. I have had numerous older aircooled 911/turbos and always felt the 997 provided a similar feel with plenty of creature comforts, the perfect 911.
i may try to find a 2010 GT3 as a keeper. The 911 series ended at the 997 at least for me it did.
thanks but no thanks
04-12-2012, 07:42 PM
#124
Rennlist Member
Seriously? Porsche stayed with air-cooling until emissions, fuel economy and manufacturing economics forced them to abandon it. Even then they have stuck with rear-engine design in their flagship car despite the added complexity of designing a high-performance car around it. Porsche could most certainly have put the 991's engine in the front, allowing them to design a chassis and suspension using ride and handling-assist technology developed by their competition, and done it cheaper than developing bespoke technology for the unique and problematic (from an engineering standpoint) rear-engine configuration.
Porsche has always been quite conservative and some might say stubborn and intractable to a fault...and to the detriment of their own profitability.
In point of fact the 991 is hardly what anyone could call a revolutionary departure from the 997. I have absolutely no quarrel with Porsche updating to new technology in the interest of improvement. What I question are the specific choices they have made in that regard. What have they improved by pasting the brand-name, plus "911" and "Carrera" on the back of what is supposedly an iconic and unmistakable body? What have they improved by adding an additional gear to an already-overcrowded shift gate rather than merely tweaking 5th and 6th to arrive at the same final drive as 7th? What have they improved by replacing a simple mechanical fail-safe emergency brake with a pressbutton at the mercy of electricity? What have they improved by replacing the no-nonsense interior with a scaled-down version of the posh luxury Panamera?
I submit to you that much of the changes in the 991 seem to have been mandated in the boardroom by bean-counters and marketeers, and precious few represent essential improvements to the actual power and handling. For some people, clearly those incremental improvements are reason enough to trade (lest we mention, having the latest bodystyle to demonstrate their success and affluence). For others, like myself, they aren't, especially in light of the compromises brought about by all those supercilious flourishes.
Porsche has always been quite conservative and some might say stubborn and intractable to a fault...and to the detriment of their own profitability.
In point of fact the 991 is hardly what anyone could call a revolutionary departure from the 997. I have absolutely no quarrel with Porsche updating to new technology in the interest of improvement. What I question are the specific choices they have made in that regard. What have they improved by pasting the brand-name, plus "911" and "Carrera" on the back of what is supposedly an iconic and unmistakable body? What have they improved by adding an additional gear to an already-overcrowded shift gate rather than merely tweaking 5th and 6th to arrive at the same final drive as 7th? What have they improved by replacing a simple mechanical fail-safe emergency brake with a pressbutton at the mercy of electricity? What have they improved by replacing the no-nonsense interior with a scaled-down version of the posh luxury Panamera?
I submit to you that much of the changes in the 991 seem to have been mandated in the boardroom by bean-counters and marketeers, and precious few represent essential improvements to the actual power and handling. For some people, clearly those incremental improvements are reason enough to trade (lest we mention, having the latest bodystyle to demonstrate their success and affluence). For others, like myself, they aren't, especially in light of the compromises brought about by all those supercilious flourishes.
04-12-2012, 07:42 PM
#125
Rennlist Member
I am the original poster. Here is my friends write up from the same car i drove and commented on that he posted on 6 speed. I did not want to tell him how i felt since he just dropped 90k.
I have driven 911's for 20 years. I have owned every variant from a 1989 Carrera, a 964, 993, 997.1, 997.2 and now of course the 991. the point is I have a diverse and solid frame of refererence over a long period of time and have logged hundreds of thousands of miles behind the wheel of 911s of all kinds.
My first impressions of the 991 that I waited so patiently for were glowing. Perhaps I wanted to love it so much that my hope became my reality in those initial days.
I have now logged over 300 miles and can say I do indeed like the car. It is a good car, a fast car and a car that handles well. It has lots of technological innvations as well. Some of which I like, such as the standard Nav and some of which I don't, like the parking brake. Sometimes I find myself reaching for the parking brake with my right hand. Maybe it just takes some getting used to but I would be lying if I didn't say I miss that.
There has been much discussion about the evils of electric steering. I paid no attention to the noise and reserved judgement for myself. My initial impression was that it was on par with the previous car. After 300 more miles I don't feel that way anymore. The steering is very good mind you, but the nay sayers have a valid point when they say that something has indeed been lost. Is that "something" a quality I can live without? I don't know.
When I combine all the little nit pick things I feel such as the standard radio being inferior to my standard 997 radio, the awkward reach of the volume button due to the shifter being in the way , the electric parking brake and most importantly the steering I question whether I can have a long term relationship with the 991. I absolutely love the looks of the car as I feel it makes the 997 look dated. I also like the way the 991 feels on the highway. It rides better and more efficiently than my 997.2 did so if I spent my driving miles doing road trips then the 991 would be a star. My driving however, is mostly short trips in the city.
Honestly I feel like I have a great car but if I drove the car not knowing it was a 911 I would not guess it was a 911. I am going to be patient and let the car break in and really open it up and see what it can do before I make any final judgements. I like the car but I do not love it. It's kind of like when you meet a girl and immediately you know you can date her for awhile but you will never want to marry her.
Usually it takes me a year to start dreaming of my next car, however, thoughts of a 2010 GT3 for keeps have already entered my mind :/
I have driven 911's for 20 years. I have owned every variant from a 1989 Carrera, a 964, 993, 997.1, 997.2 and now of course the 991. the point is I have a diverse and solid frame of refererence over a long period of time and have logged hundreds of thousands of miles behind the wheel of 911s of all kinds.
My first impressions of the 991 that I waited so patiently for were glowing. Perhaps I wanted to love it so much that my hope became my reality in those initial days.
I have now logged over 300 miles and can say I do indeed like the car. It is a good car, a fast car and a car that handles well. It has lots of technological innvations as well. Some of which I like, such as the standard Nav and some of which I don't, like the parking brake. Sometimes I find myself reaching for the parking brake with my right hand. Maybe it just takes some getting used to but I would be lying if I didn't say I miss that.
There has been much discussion about the evils of electric steering. I paid no attention to the noise and reserved judgement for myself. My initial impression was that it was on par with the previous car. After 300 more miles I don't feel that way anymore. The steering is very good mind you, but the nay sayers have a valid point when they say that something has indeed been lost. Is that "something" a quality I can live without? I don't know.
When I combine all the little nit pick things I feel such as the standard radio being inferior to my standard 997 radio, the awkward reach of the volume button due to the shifter being in the way , the electric parking brake and most importantly the steering I question whether I can have a long term relationship with the 991. I absolutely love the looks of the car as I feel it makes the 997 look dated. I also like the way the 991 feels on the highway. It rides better and more efficiently than my 997.2 did so if I spent my driving miles doing road trips then the 991 would be a star. My driving however, is mostly short trips in the city.
Honestly I feel like I have a great car but if I drove the car not knowing it was a 911 I would not guess it was a 911. I am going to be patient and let the car break in and really open it up and see what it can do before I make any final judgements. I like the car but I do not love it. It's kind of like when you meet a girl and immediately you know you can date her for awhile but you will never want to marry her.
Usually it takes me a year to start dreaming of my next car, however, thoughts of a 2010 GT3 for keeps have already entered my mind :/
Last edited by alexb76; 04-12-2012 at 08:13 PM.
04-12-2012, 09:36 PM
#126
Seriously? Porsche stayed with air-cooling until emissions, fuel economy and manufacturing economics forced them to abandon it. Even then they have stuck with rear-engine design in their flagship car despite the added complexity of designing a high-performance car around it. Porsche could most certainly have put the 991's engine in the front, allowing them to design a chassis and suspension using ride and handling-assist technology developed by their competition, and done it cheaper than developing bespoke technology for the unique and problematic (from an engineering standpoint) rear-engine configuration.
Porsche has always been quite conservative and some might say stubborn and intractable to a fault...and to the detriment of their own profitability.
In point of fact the 991 is hardly what anyone could call a revolutionary departure from the 997. I have absolutely no quarrel with Porsche updating to new technology in the interest of improvement. What I question are the specific choices they have made in that regard. What have they improved by pasting the brand-name, plus "911" and "Carrera" on the back of what is supposedly an iconic and unmistakable body? What have they improved by adding an additional gear to an already-overcrowded shift gate rather than merely tweaking 5th and 6th to arrive at the same final drive as 7th? What have they improved by replacing a simple mechanical fail-safe emergency brake with a pressbutton at the mercy of electricity? What have they improved by replacing the no-nonsense interior with a scaled-down version of the posh luxury Panamera?
I submit to you that much of the changes in the 991 seem to have been mandated in the boardroom by bean-counters and marketeers, and precious few represent essential improvements to the actual power and handling. For some people, clearly those incremental improvements are reason enough to trade (lest we mention, having the latest bodystyle to demonstrate their success and affluence). For others, like myself, they aren't, especially in light of the compromises brought about by all those supercilious flourishes.
Porsche has always been quite conservative and some might say stubborn and intractable to a fault...and to the detriment of their own profitability.
In point of fact the 991 is hardly what anyone could call a revolutionary departure from the 997. I have absolutely no quarrel with Porsche updating to new technology in the interest of improvement. What I question are the specific choices they have made in that regard. What have they improved by pasting the brand-name, plus "911" and "Carrera" on the back of what is supposedly an iconic and unmistakable body? What have they improved by adding an additional gear to an already-overcrowded shift gate rather than merely tweaking 5th and 6th to arrive at the same final drive as 7th? What have they improved by replacing a simple mechanical fail-safe emergency brake with a pressbutton at the mercy of electricity? What have they improved by replacing the no-nonsense interior with a scaled-down version of the posh luxury Panamera?
I submit to you that much of the changes in the 991 seem to have been mandated in the boardroom by bean-counters and marketeers, and precious few represent essential improvements to the actual power and handling. For some people, clearly those incremental improvements are reason enough to trade (lest we mention, having the latest bodystyle to demonstrate their success and affluence). For others, like myself, they aren't, especially in light of the compromises brought about by all those supercilious flourishes.
from the Panamera. It has a broader customer base and will sell to new customers who will not miss quirky. I have no use for it in particular but I will say it goes like stink. 0-100 in 8.6 for an S is huge. The sportier GT#'s and Turbos will be awesome. Problem is my car is already too fast for anything more than an occasional run thru the gears waiting and watching for the flashing red lights that will take my license away. And the prices? Ugh. To be trite I respect the 991 but will be keeping my 997.
04-13-2012, 11:50 AM
#127
Rennlist Member
I think they should have made a hardtop convertible in the 991. Ferrari did it with the 458. That would make sense, all the drivers aids, electric steering, pdk, electric hand brake, panamera interior, hardtop convertible.
04-13-2012, 03:19 PM
#128
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Forgive me if you were being facetious, but the top would need to do a forward flip over the windscreen into the frunk...where would the linkage be housed, in 1-foot thick A-pillars? No doubt Porsche's legal department would quite insist upon a lock-out to prevent the top from being actuated whilst the car was in motion. And the frunk would have to be hinged at the front...a practise which AFAIK was abandoned (at least in the US market) due to past instances of passenger decapitation in frontal collisions, and resulting litigation. That said, given the rest of the 991's nifty new features and the direction it's leading to, I may just have to come back and eat crow.
04-13-2012, 04:47 PM
#129
Forgive me if you were being facetious, but the top would need to do a forward flip over the windscreen into the frunk...where would the linkage be housed, in 1-foot thick A-pillars? No doubt Porsche's legal department would quite insist upon a lock-out to prevent the top from being actuated whilst the car was in motion. And the frunk would have to be hinged at the front...a practise which AFAIK was abandoned (at least in the US market) due to past instances of passenger decapitation in frontal collisions, and resulting litigation. That said, given the rest of the 991's nifty new features and the direction it's leading to, I may just have to come back and eat crow.
04-13-2012, 06:48 PM
#130
Race Director
04-14-2012, 10:59 AM
#131
Nordschleife Master
Forgive me if you were being facetious, but the top would need to do a forward flip over the windscreen into the frunk...where would the linkage be housed, in 1-foot thick A-pillars? No doubt Porsche's legal department would quite insist upon a lock-out to prevent the top from being actuated whilst the car was in motion. And the frunk would have to be hinged at the front...a practise which AFAIK was abandoned (at least in the US market) due to past instances of passenger decapitation in frontal collisions, and resulting litigation. That said, given the rest of the 991's nifty new features and the direction it's leading to, I may just have to come back and eat crow.
Mike: I do not dispute that the 991S will post better Ring times than the 997S. I question the claimed times. I do not believe you can extrapolate fig 8 times to Ring times. Too many difference and variables.
The main Ring is what, 11 miles? Even assuming a 15 sec difference S to S both going flat out that difference still equates to miniscule difference in perceptible performance in the real world day to day.
The 991S and 997S are still close enough in performance capability that the most important factor determining finishing times and position would still be the driver.
04-14-2012, 02:24 PM
#132
Race Director
Mike: I do not dispute that the 991S will post better Ring times than the 997S. I question the claimed times. I do not believe you can extrapolate fig 8 times to Ring times. Too many difference and variables.
The main Ring is what, 11 miles? Even assuming a 15 sec difference S to S both going flat out that difference still equates to miniscule difference in perceptible performance in the real world day to day.
The 991S and 997S are still close enough in performance capability that the most important factor determining finishing times and position would still be the driver.
I still say there is no reason for Porsche to cheat on the 991S Ring times; there is absolutely no upside to doing so especially if independent tests later prove them to be bogus. What is your objective basis for disbelieving Porsche's claims? Have they faked times or performance data in the past? BTW, as another data point, in the Porsche Sport Driving School thread elsewhere on the forum it was pointed out that the PSDS instructors say the 991S is as fast around Barber Motorsports Park as a 997.2 GT3. Are they lying too?
You're right, it's always more about the driver than the car, but put the same driver in both a 991S and 997S and the difference will be decisive. The 991S may not float your boat for any number of reasons, but you can't deny it's fast.
Last edited by Mike in CA; 04-14-2012 at 02:47 PM.
04-14-2012, 03:18 PM
#133
Rennlist Member
Being faster doesn't necessarily mean better, when a lot of things have been compromised to achieve that (although probably didn't need those compromises to be faster, just a lighter chasis, better suspension tune-up, GT3 RS front-end, and that'd be it!).
04-14-2012, 03:56 PM
#134
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04-14-2012, 07:00 PM
#135
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Agreed, yet GT-R, and even Dodge Viper are even FASTER... shall we go buy those then?
Being faster doesn't necessarily mean better, when a lot of things have been compromised to achieve that (although probably didn't need those compromises to be faster, just a lighter chasis, better suspension tune-up, GT3 RS front-end, and that'd be it!).
Being faster doesn't necessarily mean better, when a lot of things have been compromised to achieve that (although probably didn't need those compromises to be faster, just a lighter chasis, better suspension tune-up, GT3 RS front-end, and that'd be it!).
That's the second time you've incorrectly quoted me on this subject. If you can find where I said that the 997's steering was too touchy above 35mph (as opposed to over 130+ mph) I will pay your Rennlist membership for a year, assuming you post the reference. Fail to do that, and you prove yourself to be nothing more than a troll.
Last edited by Mike in CA; 04-15-2012 at 12:21 PM. Reason: sp