991 NOT FOR ME
04-12-2012, 01:16 AM
#106
Ok, fair enough on the first point.
On the second point though, I totally disagree. Yes, the reviews say, for *an electric steering* it's a good implementations with good feedback, but there's absolutely no denying that it is more numb and has a lot less feedback than the hydrolic steering which has defined the 911 feel for decades. I am one of those guys who claim this has definitely ruined the car. It simply was NOT necessary to do that, for a gain of .5MPG... I do agree with you that Porsche WILL refine it, and might replace it back with Hydrolic or a hyrbrid system (like McLaren) in their GT3 or .2 models.
On the second point though, I totally disagree. Yes, the reviews say, for *an electric steering* it's a good implementations with good feedback, but there's absolutely no denying that it is more numb and has a lot less feedback than the hydrolic steering which has defined the 911 feel for decades. I am one of those guys who claim this has definitely ruined the car. It simply was NOT necessary to do that, for a gain of .5MPG... I do agree with you that Porsche WILL refine it, and might replace it back with Hydrolic or a hyrbrid system (like McLaren) in their GT3 or .2 models.
Have you thrown the 991 quickly into a few corners and felt the effect of the wider front track? The turn in of the new car is very different. It's much more aggressive than the 997. I don't think light and twitchy steering would suit the new chassis setup. It would be very tiring on a long drive. Perhaps they will enhance "Sport Plus" to include a new steering assistance profile. Should be possible to achieve with software.
04-12-2012, 01:31 AM
#107
Rennlist Member
The electric steering in the 991 feels quite similar to the hydraulic system in my Maserati. Both are smooth and precise with a decent amount of weight.
Have you thrown the 991 quickly into a few corners and felt the effect of the wider front track? The turn in of the new car is very different. It's much more aggressive than the 997. I don't think light and twitchy steering would suit the new chassis setup. It would be very tiring on a long drive. Perhaps they will enhance "Sport Plus" to include a new steering assistance profile. Should be possible to achieve with software.
Have you thrown the 991 quickly into a few corners and felt the effect of the wider front track? The turn in of the new car is very different. It's much more aggressive than the 997. I don't think light and twitchy steering would suit the new chassis setup. It would be very tiring on a long drive. Perhaps they will enhance "Sport Plus" to include a new steering assistance profile. Should be possible to achieve with software.
On your second point, just makes MY POINT, when the *feel* is generated by Software, it's just a ruined 911 (and I am a Software developer)!
04-12-2012, 01:43 AM
#108
As it happens I'm also trained as a software developer. They must have something more sophisticated than a naive function to calculate the power assistance at any given time. It should be possible to switch to a different data table in sport plus mode and change the steering feel.
My point was I believe the new steering feel is mostly intentional and not just a side effect of using electric assistance. If they had used a conventional hydraulic setup, they might have chosen to arrive at a similar result.
My point was I believe the new steering feel is mostly intentional and not just a side effect of using electric assistance. If they had used a conventional hydraulic setup, they might have chosen to arrive at a similar result.
04-12-2012, 02:10 AM
#109
Rennlist Member
Maybe? but even Porsche has stated that electrical steering was primarily adopted due to fuel savings it provides... and to me, the *other* reason is that it is definitely a cheaper option, and as you said tweakable via Software, which is less costly to tune than a mechanical hydrolic system!
04-12-2012, 03:30 AM
#110
Nordschleife Master
The funny thing is they did e-steering to save a smidgen of fuel, eliminating the power steering pump and hydraulic lines, but... add a similar pump and hydraulic lines on PDCC-equipped cars. 
04-12-2012, 10:26 AM
#111
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Hey 991 haters, its the freaking 21st century. No one wants a yestertech car. Look at Lotus, they're barely hanging on, yet that's what you guys seem to want the 911 to be. Look at the competition, Ferrari, Lambo, Audi and even MB, they all have technology. You guys think that the reason the previous 911 were built was because they wanted crude old dynamics, wrong, they built them with the best available technology of their time, there is no difference here.
Porsche has always been quite conservative and some might say stubborn and intractable to a fault...and to the detriment of their own profitability.
In point of fact the 991 is hardly what anyone could call a revolutionary departure from the 997. I have absolutely no quarrel with Porsche updating to new technology in the interest of improvement. What I question are the specific choices they have made in that regard. What have they improved by pasting the brand-name, plus "911" and "Carrera" on the back of what is supposedly an iconic and unmistakable body? What have they improved by adding an additional gear to an already-overcrowded shift gate rather than merely tweaking 5th and 6th to arrive at the same final drive as 7th? What have they improved by replacing a simple mechanical fail-safe emergency brake with a pressbutton at the mercy of electricity? What have they improved by replacing the no-nonsense interior with a scaled-down version of the posh luxury Panamera?
I submit to you that much of the changes in the 991 seem to have been mandated in the boardroom by bean-counters and marketeers, and precious few represent essential improvements to the actual power and handling. For some people, clearly those incremental improvements are reason enough to trade (lest we mention, having the latest bodystyle to demonstrate their success and affluence). For others, like myself, they aren't, especially in light of the compromises brought about by all those supercilious flourishes.
04-12-2012, 10:33 AM
#112
That's not funny or peculiar at all. They engineered an efficiency improvement and used some (or all) of that improvement to provide an additional feature (which they can charge for). They do the same thing with the engine on every update. They simultaniously improve power and fuel economy. Not just one or the other. Regardless, I believe the steering feel is mostly intentional. You drive a 991, everything works smoothly together. You get back into a 997, everything works well together, but the steering is twitcher, the car is bouncier and the limits of grip are reached earlier. This is what you're all complaining about. You're not getting the same feedback from the 991 at the same kind of speeds. It needs to be driven a lot faster and harder to come alive.
04-12-2012, 10:37 AM
#113
Rennlist Member
Seriously? Porsche stayed with air-cooling until emissions, fuel economy and manufacturing economics forced them to abandon it. Even then they have stuck with rear-engine design in their flagship car despite the added complexity of designing a high-performance car around it. Porsche could most certainly have put the 991's engine in the front, allowing them to design a chassis and suspension using ride and handling-assist technology developed by their competition, and done it cheaper than developing bespoke technology for the unique and problematic (from an engineering standpoint) rear-engine configuration.
Porsche has always been quite conservative and some might say stubborn and intractable to a fault...and to the detriment of their own profitability.
In point of fact the 991 is hardly what anyone could call a revolutionary departure from the 997. I have absolutely no quarrel with Porsche updating to new technology in the interest of improvement. What I question are the specific choices they have made in that regard. What have they improved by pasting the brand-name, plus "911" and "Carrera" on the back of what is supposedly an iconic and unmistakable body? What have they improved by adding an additional gear to an already-overcrowded shift gate rather than merely tweaking 5th and 6th to arrive at the same final drive as 7th? What have they improved by replacing a simple mechanical fail-safe emergency brake with a pressbutton at the mercy of electricity? What have they improved by replacing the no-nonsense interior with a scaled-down version of the posh luxury Panamera?
I submit to you that much of the changes in the 991 seem to have been mandated in the boardroom by bean-counters and marketeers, and precious few represent essential improvements to the actual power and handling. For some people, clearly those incremental improvements are reason enough to trade (lest we mention, having the latest bodystyle to demonstrate their success and affluence). For others, like myself, they aren't, especially in light of the compromises brought about by all those supercilious flourishes.
Porsche has always been quite conservative and some might say stubborn and intractable to a fault...and to the detriment of their own profitability.
In point of fact the 991 is hardly what anyone could call a revolutionary departure from the 997. I have absolutely no quarrel with Porsche updating to new technology in the interest of improvement. What I question are the specific choices they have made in that regard. What have they improved by pasting the brand-name, plus "911" and "Carrera" on the back of what is supposedly an iconic and unmistakable body? What have they improved by adding an additional gear to an already-overcrowded shift gate rather than merely tweaking 5th and 6th to arrive at the same final drive as 7th? What have they improved by replacing a simple mechanical fail-safe emergency brake with a pressbutton at the mercy of electricity? What have they improved by replacing the no-nonsense interior with a scaled-down version of the posh luxury Panamera?
I submit to you that much of the changes in the 991 seem to have been mandated in the boardroom by bean-counters and marketeers, and precious few represent essential improvements to the actual power and handling. For some people, clearly those incremental improvements are reason enough to trade (lest we mention, having the latest bodystyle to demonstrate their success and affluence). For others, like myself, they aren't, especially in light of the compromises brought about by all those supercilious flourishes.
04-12-2012, 01:29 PM
#115
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Original post
I am the original poster. Here is my friends write up from the same car i drove and commented on that he posted on 6 speed. I did not want to tell him how i felt since he just dropped 90k.
I have driven 911's for 20 years. I have owned every variant from a 1989 Carrera, a 964, 993, 997.1, 997.2 and now of course the 991. the point is I have a diverse and solid frame of refererence over a long period of time and have logged hundreds of thousands of miles behind the wheel of 911s of all kinds.
My first impressions of the 991 that I waited so patiently for were glowing. Perhaps I wanted to love it so much that my hope became my reality in those initial days.
I have now logged over 300 miles and can say I do indeed like the car. It is a good car, a fast car and a car that handles well. It has lots of technological innvations as well. Some of which I like, such as the standard Nav and some of which I don't, like the parking brake. Sometimes I find myself reaching for the parking brake with my right hand. Maybe it just takes some getting used to but I would be lying if I didn't say I miss that.
There has been much discussion about the evils of electric steering. I paid no attention to the noise and reserved judgement for myself. My initial impression was that it was on par with the previous car. After 300 more miles I don't feel that way anymore. The steering is very good mind you, but the nay sayers have a valid point when they say that something has indeed been lost. Is that "something" a quality I can live without? I don't know.
When I combine all the little nit pick things I feel such as the standard radio being inferior to my standard 997 radio, the awkward reach of the volume button due to the shifter being in the way , the electric parking brake and most importantly the steering I question whether I can have a long term relationship with the 991. I absolutely love the looks of the car as I feel it makes the 997 look dated. I also like the way the 991 feels on the highway. It rides better and more efficiently than my 997.2 did so if I spent my driving miles doing road trips then the 991 would be a star. My driving however, is mostly short trips in the city.
Honestly I feel like I have a great car but if I drove the car not knowing it was a 911 I would not guess it was a 911. I am going to be patient and let the car break in and really open it up and see what it can do before I make any final judgements. I like the car but I do not love it. It's kind of like when you meet a girl and immediately you know you can date her for awhile but you will never want to marry her.
Usually it takes me a year to start dreaming of my next car, however, thoughts of a 2010 GT3 for keeps have already entered my mind :/
I have driven 911's for 20 years. I have owned every variant from a 1989 Carrera, a 964, 993, 997.1, 997.2 and now of course the 991. the point is I have a diverse and solid frame of refererence over a long period of time and have logged hundreds of thousands of miles behind the wheel of 911s of all kinds.
My first impressions of the 991 that I waited so patiently for were glowing. Perhaps I wanted to love it so much that my hope became my reality in those initial days.
I have now logged over 300 miles and can say I do indeed like the car. It is a good car, a fast car and a car that handles well. It has lots of technological innvations as well. Some of which I like, such as the standard Nav and some of which I don't, like the parking brake. Sometimes I find myself reaching for the parking brake with my right hand. Maybe it just takes some getting used to but I would be lying if I didn't say I miss that.
There has been much discussion about the evils of electric steering. I paid no attention to the noise and reserved judgement for myself. My initial impression was that it was on par with the previous car. After 300 more miles I don't feel that way anymore. The steering is very good mind you, but the nay sayers have a valid point when they say that something has indeed been lost. Is that "something" a quality I can live without? I don't know.
When I combine all the little nit pick things I feel such as the standard radio being inferior to my standard 997 radio, the awkward reach of the volume button due to the shifter being in the way , the electric parking brake and most importantly the steering I question whether I can have a long term relationship with the 991. I absolutely love the looks of the car as I feel it makes the 997 look dated. I also like the way the 991 feels on the highway. It rides better and more efficiently than my 997.2 did so if I spent my driving miles doing road trips then the 991 would be a star. My driving however, is mostly short trips in the city.
Honestly I feel like I have a great car but if I drove the car not knowing it was a 911 I would not guess it was a 911. I am going to be patient and let the car break in and really open it up and see what it can do before I make any final judgements. I like the car but I do not love it. It's kind of like when you meet a girl and immediately you know you can date her for awhile but you will never want to marry her.
Usually it takes me a year to start dreaming of my next car, however, thoughts of a 2010 GT3 for keeps have already entered my mind :/
04-12-2012, 01:51 PM
#116
That's what Porsche is saying (of course). From the May issue of Car and Driver's 991 cabriolet review...
The steering wheel no longer shimmies and shakes as it did in the previous 911 (the 997), and it no longer transmits the contours of every last pebble the tires touch. According to Porsch engineers, this is not because the 911 has adopted electrically assisted variable-ratio rack-and-pinion power steering, which it has; rather, it's because these "toned-down" steering sensations are beneficial to the driver. Porsche says it wants to weed out the bad steering transmissions (from small potholes, rough patches of road, etc.) and focus on only what a driver needs to know in order to go fast. We're not buying it. We bet the steering will get better with age, at which point Porsche will deny it ever said any of that.
Also, it seems like those who are hoping for hydraulic steering in the GT cars may be out of luck...
Porsche says every 911 helm will have this system or one like it going forward, even impending 991 versions of the track-focused GT2 and GT3 models.
Jason
The steering wheel no longer shimmies and shakes as it did in the previous 911 (the 997), and it no longer transmits the contours of every last pebble the tires touch. According to Porsch engineers, this is not because the 911 has adopted electrically assisted variable-ratio rack-and-pinion power steering, which it has; rather, it's because these "toned-down" steering sensations are beneficial to the driver. Porsche says it wants to weed out the bad steering transmissions (from small potholes, rough patches of road, etc.) and focus on only what a driver needs to know in order to go fast. We're not buying it. We bet the steering will get better with age, at which point Porsche will deny it ever said any of that.
Also, it seems like those who are hoping for hydraulic steering in the GT cars may be out of luck...
Porsche says every 911 helm will have this system or one like it going forward, even impending 991 versions of the track-focused GT2 and GT3 models.
Jason
04-12-2012, 02:08 PM
#117
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
March 12 Porsche Sales numbers
911 sales down. I know two dealers here in South Florida that one has 22 the other has 24 991's in stock. That seems rather high.
Sales in March 2012 by model:
• Boxster/Cayman -- 87, down 68 percent
• 911 -- 465, down 24 percent
• Cayenne -- 1,255, up 20 percent
• Panamera -- 653, down 0.2 percent
Sales in March 2012 by model:
• Boxster/Cayman -- 87, down 68 percent
• 911 -- 465, down 24 percent
• Cayenne -- 1,255, up 20 percent
• Panamera -- 653, down 0.2 percent
04-12-2012, 02:31 PM
#118
Race Director
I appreciate your comments. If I may....
The issue of the cost of a complete end to end swap of the drivetrain aside, then it would no longer be a 911 but rather a kind of 2-door Panamera. I assume you're being rhetorical, but still, what would be the point?
I grant you this is a cosmetic issue and totally subjective, but not completely inconsistent with past historic Porsche model designations with ample lettering. Besides, you can just delete the extra labeling.
They've added significant fuel saving overdrive ability. The 997 is capable of reaching it's top speed in 6th gear. If you stretched 6th to the same overall gearing as the new 7th that would no longer be possible and 5th gear would have to be reworked for top speed. Unfortunately the spacing between all of the lower gears would then be widened and acceleration would be compromised. It's a bit more complicated than "merely tweaking".
Personally, I prefer a pull up handbrake, but there are savings in weight and cost with the electrical E-brake. We can argue over whether they are worth it. One point though; mechanical E-brakes aren't fail safe. Cables break and linkages bind and fail. It would be interesting to see reliability data on the two types of brake but my bet would be that Porsche and other manufacturers don't feel they've gone to a less reliable system.
Again, a subjective cosmetic issue. If one doesn't like the new layout, there's nothing to be said. I imagine Porsche feels there is benefit identity wise and from a manufacturing standpoint in having similar interior themes among all of their cars.
And yet somehow the car has significantly improved in virtually all objective measures of performance. Those bean counters and marketeers really lucked out.
I hear your and other's concerns with the new car, but in general I don't share them. I can see a rationale for virtually every change that was made. When the time comes for me to part with my 997.2 I'm comfortable with the fact that a thoroughly modern new 911 will be waiting.
Porsche could most certainly have put the 991's engine in the front, allowing them to design a chassis and suspension using ride and handling-assist technology developed by their competition, and done it cheaper than developing bespoke technology for the unique and problematic (from an engineering standpoint) rear-engine configuration.
I hear your and other's concerns with the new car, but in general I don't share them. I can see a rationale for virtually every change that was made. When the time comes for me to part with my 997.2 I'm comfortable with the fact that a thoroughly modern new 911 will be waiting.
Last edited by Mike in CA; 04-12-2012 at 03:06 PM.
04-12-2012, 03:05 PM
#119
Race Director
Interesting. Mine has none on the lot....all delivered so far have been spoken for. Deliveries were just beginning in March; I think it may take a while before we get meaningful numbers.
04-12-2012, 05:15 PM
#120
Drifting
I am the original poster. Here is my friends write up from the same car i drove and commented on that he posted on 6 speed. I did not want to tell him how i felt since he just dropped 90k.
I have driven 911's for 20 years. I have owned every variant from a 1989 Carrera, a 964, 993, 997.1, 997.2 and now of course the 991. the point is I have a diverse and solid frame of refererence over a long period of time and have logged hundreds of thousands of miles behind the wheel of 911s of all kinds.
My first impressions of the 991 that I waited so patiently for were glowing. Perhaps I wanted to love it so much that my hope became my reality in those initial days.
I have now logged over 300 miles and can say I do indeed like the car. It is a good car, a fast car and a car that handles well. It has lots of technological innvations as well. Some of which I like, such as the standard Nav and some of which I don't, like the parking brake. Sometimes I find myself reaching for the parking brake with my right hand. Maybe it just takes some getting used to but I would be lying if I didn't say I miss that.
There has been much discussion about the evils of electric steering. I paid no attention to the noise and reserved judgement for myself. My initial impression was that it was on par with the previous car. After 300 more miles I don't feel that way anymore. The steering is very good mind you, but the nay sayers have a valid point when they say that something has indeed been lost. Is that "something" a quality I can live without? I don't know.
When I combine all the little nit pick things I feel such as the standard radio being inferior to my standard 997 radio, the awkward reach of the volume button due to the shifter being in the way , the electric parking brake and most importantly the steering I question whether I can have a long term relationship with the 991. I absolutely love the looks of the car as I feel it makes the 997 look dated. I also like the way the 991 feels on the highway. It rides better and more efficiently than my 997.2 did so if I spent my driving miles doing road trips then the 991 would be a star. My driving however, is mostly short trips in the city.
Honestly I feel like I have a great car but if I drove the car not knowing it was a 911 I would not guess it was a 911. I am going to be patient and let the car break in and really open it up and see what it can do before I make any final judgements. I like the car but I do not love it. It's kind of like when you meet a girl and immediately you know you can date her for awhile but you will never want to marry her.
Usually it takes me a year to start dreaming of my next car, however, thoughts of a 2010 GT3 for keeps have already entered my mind :/
I have driven 911's for 20 years. I have owned every variant from a 1989 Carrera, a 964, 993, 997.1, 997.2 and now of course the 991. the point is I have a diverse and solid frame of refererence over a long period of time and have logged hundreds of thousands of miles behind the wheel of 911s of all kinds.
My first impressions of the 991 that I waited so patiently for were glowing. Perhaps I wanted to love it so much that my hope became my reality in those initial days.
I have now logged over 300 miles and can say I do indeed like the car. It is a good car, a fast car and a car that handles well. It has lots of technological innvations as well. Some of which I like, such as the standard Nav and some of which I don't, like the parking brake. Sometimes I find myself reaching for the parking brake with my right hand. Maybe it just takes some getting used to but I would be lying if I didn't say I miss that.
There has been much discussion about the evils of electric steering. I paid no attention to the noise and reserved judgement for myself. My initial impression was that it was on par with the previous car. After 300 more miles I don't feel that way anymore. The steering is very good mind you, but the nay sayers have a valid point when they say that something has indeed been lost. Is that "something" a quality I can live without? I don't know.
When I combine all the little nit pick things I feel such as the standard radio being inferior to my standard 997 radio, the awkward reach of the volume button due to the shifter being in the way , the electric parking brake and most importantly the steering I question whether I can have a long term relationship with the 991. I absolutely love the looks of the car as I feel it makes the 997 look dated. I also like the way the 991 feels on the highway. It rides better and more efficiently than my 997.2 did so if I spent my driving miles doing road trips then the 991 would be a star. My driving however, is mostly short trips in the city.
Honestly I feel like I have a great car but if I drove the car not knowing it was a 911 I would not guess it was a 911. I am going to be patient and let the car break in and really open it up and see what it can do before I make any final judgements. I like the car but I do not love it. It's kind of like when you meet a girl and immediately you know you can date her for awhile but you will never want to marry her.
Usually it takes me a year to start dreaming of my next car, however, thoughts of a 2010 GT3 for keeps have already entered my mind :/
If the dealer called me and told me they had a less than 5k mile GTS available in white, manual I would think long and hard. I will not act impulsively though. I want to give the 991 a chance to grow on me but I remember driving a GTS spiritedly on a test drive 6 months ago and when I got out of that car I felt like one feels like when you exit the roller coaster after a wild ride. When I get out of the 991 I feel like I just stepped out of a luxury car that offered me a very comfortable and nice form of transportation. It just doesn't stir my soul right now. I am trying really hard but just as one realizes it's time to break up with the wrong woman and go back to your true love, I am approaching that point.