My motor is trashed!
#61
Three Wheelin'
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The over-engineering of the DFI engine is just an assumption as I never read anything from Porsche (that would be admitting to an under-engineered predecessor). I gambled on the new engine thinking that they had to or else damaging the brand... although they waited 11 years to bring out the new one so maybe they didn't care that much. Anywho... the engine is better in all (?) aspects including pumps. What gave me confidence is the video Porsche put out just prior to the release of the new engine where it was to show off their oil sump... remember, the engine on the test rig simulating the Nurburgring? I immediatly saw through that... few were complaining of bad oil sumps so why would the highlight that? I believed they were showing the world they actually tested the new engine.
Regarding the 997 manual transmission: Yea, I know of no failures. But as I noted before, it is far from a work of art to put it mildly.
Peace
Bruce in Philly (now Atlanta)
Regarding the 997 manual transmission: Yea, I know of no failures. But as I noted before, it is far from a work of art to put it mildly.
Peace
Bruce in Philly (now Atlanta)
When looking at bore scoring you see the same thing. Comparing the 9A1 to the M96/97 it looks like Porsche pretty much threw the kitchen sink at it:
.
- Changed the case material to more expensive monolithic Alusil rather than using Lokasil liners - improves cylinder wall durability
- Changed piston skirt coating from a soft printed material (Ferroprint) to a hard plated material (Ferrotec) - coating doesn't flake off
- Changed from an open deck cylinder to a closed deck design - better cylinder stability
- Increased the conn rod to stroke ratio - reduces piston side force on the cylinder wall
Everyone one of these changes (in theory at least) would lessen the chance of bore scoring. These types of changes are expensive and aren't taken lightly as they potentially introduce other problems that aren't known or understood. Yet Porsche did all this back in the mid-2000's when no one was talking about bore scoring. They almost certainly knew about it from warranty engine replacements. It sure looks like they took steps to correct it in the new engine design but never admitted the problem to the public.
Last edited by PV997; 10-16-2021 at 11:43 AM.
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rdcyclist (12-10-2022)
#62
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Peace
Bruce in Philly (now in Atlanta)
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PowderJunkie (10-07-2021)
#63
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even with the purchase price of my used 06S and a FSI 4.0 stage 2 with all the upgrades (major scoring at 50K miles) it was still less than half the cost of my 17 Targa new. For the money the 997 with a rebuild is still amazing value. Not to mention a way better drivers car.
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#64
Nordschleife Master
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When looking at bore scoring you see the same thing. Comparing the 9A1 to the M96/97 it looks like Porsche pretty much threw the kitchen sink at it:
.
.
- Changed the case material to more expensive monolithic Alusil rather than using Lokasil liners - improves cylinder wall durability
- Changed piston skirt coating from a soft printed material (Ferroprint) to a hard plated material (Ferrotec) - coating doesn't flake off
- Changed from an open deck cylinder to a closed deck design - better cylinder stability
- Increased the conn rod to stroke ratio - reduces piston side force on the cylinder wall
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anewman (10-08-2021)
#65
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Maybe all these changes led to the story I read where the 9A1 engine was referred to as "over engineered" compared to the M96/97. The IMS issue tarnished the brand to some extent eventually leading to a class action lawsuit. So I don't think it's too hard to imagine that Porsche recognized that it wasn't a good idea to continue selling newer versions of the 911 that triggered class action lawsuits due to a poorly designed engine.
Edit: Sorry, I did not mean to put Porsche at the same level as GM... they are not.
Peace
Bruce in Philly (now Atlanta)
Last edited by Bruce In Philly; 10-08-2021 at 09:31 AM.
#66
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Whoever is running Porsche marketing deserves a Nobel Prize in the Psychological sciences. For a small maker to have such bad press for 11 years and then .... well me for example who had two engines blow... have the public go ahead and buy another one... is just amazing. The power of this brand is astonishing. GM, for example, still has reputation issues that resonate today for the crap they built in the '70s (at least with folks my age). I still remember this quite well.... stories of GM assembly and engineering issues back then could fill a book... er um a land fill. Porsche seems to just soar unscathed.
Edit: Sorry, I did not mean to put Porsche at the same level as GM... they are not.
Peace
Bruce in Philly (now Atlanta)
Edit: Sorry, I did not mean to put Porsche at the same level as GM... they are not.
Peace
Bruce in Philly (now Atlanta)
#67
Instructor
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For what's it's worth - I love the 911 but am not a purist that believes it the flat six is worth heaven and earth to preserve. The chassis is what makes the 911 IMHO.
If my motor ever goes, LS swap is probably the way to go...http://renegadehybrids.com/
If my motor ever goes, LS swap is probably the way to go...http://renegadehybrids.com/
#68
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For what's it's worth - I love the 911 but am not a purist that believes it the flat six is worth heaven and earth to preserve. The chassis is what makes the 911 IMHO.
If my motor ever goes, LS swap is probably the way to go...http://renegadehybrids.com/
If my motor ever goes, LS swap is probably the way to go...http://renegadehybrids.com/
#69
Nordschleife Master
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Whoever is running Porsche marketing deserves a Nobel Prize in the Psychological sciences. For a small maker to have such bad press for 11 years and then .... well me for example who had two engines blow... have the public go ahead and buy another one... is just amazing. The power of this brand is astonishing. GM, for example, still has reputation issues that resonate today for the crap they built in the '70s (at least with folks my age). I still remember this quite well.... stories of GM assembly and engineering issues back then could fill a book... er um a land fill. Porsche seems to just soar unscathed.
Edit: Sorry, I did not mean to put Porsche at the same level as GM... they are not.
Peace
Bruce in Philly (now Atlanta)
Edit: Sorry, I did not mean to put Porsche at the same level as GM... they are not.
Peace
Bruce in Philly (now Atlanta)
So despite the issues over the years, once a 911 owner you're likely to continue to be one. So I'm not even sure they need a marketing department. Maybe a small one but I think they would do just fine with enough dealerships with enough of a variety of cars...new and used to choose from. Those who want a 911 don't need a commercial or online ad to convince them as I see it.
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Robocop305 (10-12-2021)
#70
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For what's it's worth - I love the 911 but am not a purist that believes it the flat six is worth heaven and earth to preserve. The chassis is what makes the 911 IMHO.
If my motor ever goes, LS swap is probably the way to go...http://renegadehybrids.com/
If my motor ever goes, LS swap is probably the way to go...http://renegadehybrids.com/
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#71
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Yep, keep in mind that probably every 996 and 997.1 engine that was replaced under warranty went back to Porsche and was dissected. They knew all about the IMSB and bore scoring when developing the 9A1, way before the general public had figured it out. They may not have fully understood the cause, but they knew failures were happening at higher rate than they should have been. Porsche completely designed out the intermediate shaft despite the fact it was a mainstay in their boxer engines for decades. There was nothing wrong with the IMS concept itself, but they must have realized that the negative publicity around the roller bearing was so bad that they just got rid of the whole thing in response.
When looking at bore scoring you see the same thing. Comparing the 9A1 to the M96/97 it looks like Porsche pretty much threw the kitchen sink at it:
.
Everyone one of these changes (in theory at least) would lessen the chance of bore scoring. These types of changes are expensive and aren't taken lightly as they potentially introduce other problems that aren't known or understood. Yet Porsche did all this back in the mid-2000's when no one was talking about bore scoring. They almost certainly knew about it from warranty engine replacements. It sure looks like they took steps to correct it in the new engine design but never admitted the problem to the public.
When looking at bore scoring you see the same thing. Comparing the 9A1 to the M96/97 it looks like Porsche pretty much threw the kitchen sink at it:
.
- Changed the case material to more expensive monolithic Alusil rather than using Lokasil liners - improves cylinder wall durability
- Changed piston skirt coating from a soft printed material (Ferroprint) to a hard plated material (Ferrotec) - coating doesn't flake off
- Changed from an open deck cylinder to a closed deck design - better cylinder stability
- Increased the conn rod to stroke ratio - reduces piston side force on the cylinder wall
Everyone one of these changes (in theory at least) would lessen the chance of bore scoring. These types of changes are expensive and aren't taken lightly as they potentially introduce other problems that aren't known or understood. Yet Porsche did all this back in the mid-2000's when no one was talking about bore scoring. They almost certainly knew about it from warranty engine replacements. It sure looks like they took steps to correct it in the new engine design but never admitted the problem to the public.
Bruce- I think the 9A1 video that replicates Nurburing that you mention was also a part of this. I think it was marketed to quietly address the oiling deficiencies of the M96 engine caused by lateral forces on the track. The 9A1 had a newly designed electromechanical oil pump to fix that problem too. I think the video was partially meant to advertise the new improved oil system design without admitting or highlighting the failures of the oil system design in the M96.
Last edited by Fullyield; 10-12-2021 at 08:36 AM.
#72
Racer
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Did you feel any major loss of power? My S has close to 85k now and seems just as strong as it was when I bought it with 40k miles but I do see some black around exhaust tips
#73
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For what's it's worth - I love the 911 but am not a purist that believes it the flat six is worth heaven and earth to preserve. The chassis is what makes the 911 IMHO.
If my motor ever goes, LS swap is probably the way to go...http://renegadehybrids.com/
If my motor ever goes, LS swap is probably the way to go...http://renegadehybrids.com/
#74
Instructor
#75
Three Wheelin'
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swap it to an aircooled engine and make everyone freak out.