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Porsche has a challenge like all car companies...... they make a product that is sold globally. They need to meet global regulations. They want to match or beat competitor claims for gas mileage and easy service. They want their customers to have an easy time of obtaining supplies wherever they travel. They want to make their cars as cheaply as they can and meet marketing/engineering specifications. They have a warranty on their cars, but are afraid of what owners will do to them or put into the engines...... So..... Porsche works with suppliers, Mobil (?), to develop a standard that meets all their requirements.... "A40" and "no additives". Is this a surprise?
Is A40 the BEST? Most likely not.... but is it EVIL? Most likely not. So, have at it.
Peace
Bruce in Philly
From many articles I have also read, oil companies similar to auto mfg.'s are under constant scrutiny and ever changing stringent regulations pertaining to emissions and what they can add to base stock without creating harmful byproducts. One article indicated this is why most oil mfg's do not use moly amongst many other oil additives directly into oil at higher concentrations due to emission approvals but using them via additives is a way to circumvent regulations and oil approvals.
From many articles I have also read, oil companies similar to auto mfg.'s are under constant scrutiny and ever changing stringent regulations pertaining to emissions and what they can add to base stock without creating harmful byproducts. One article indicated this is why most oil mfg's do not use moly amongst many other oil additives directly into oil at higher concentrations due to emission approvals but using them via additives is a way to circumvent regulations and oil approvals.
Interesting post and article. I bet though that moly used in ICEs stays mostly in the enclosed ICE system, unless the engine burns a lot of oil. I am comfortable with my moly use as my 9A1 engine burns no oil.
A40 is A40, it all has to meet Porsche standards with what I gather has been a reduction in ZDDP or moly perhaps because of warranty, EPA standards, fleet mileage, etc. So why does everybody and I mean everybody slam only Mobile for changing their formula. Even the old geezers at my local indy rant on about it if you bring up using Mobile 1. I find it interesting that the very knowledgeable people that are in the business of tearing these motors down will still only use vague comments like "there may be a better oil for your application". I haven't found one that will say an oil brand caused a catastrophic failure. It also appears that boutique oils have said ZDDP or the like in their customized additive package. So why would it be called snake oil if a consumer adds that to an A40 oil? Is it just me or are some of us at the conclusion that oil brand and additives are just not the problem in our road going modern cars, nor will they be. From reading this forum (which I really enjoy) I surmise that our beloved vehicles are much more likely to be crippled by the home mechanic, deteriorated filters, acidic brake fluid, mice, miss shifts, dropped Christmas ointment boxes, and the like. I don't claim to be an expert but these are my summations.
A40 is A40, it all has to meet Porsche standards with what I gather has been a reduction in ZDDP or moly perhaps because of warranty, EPA standards, fleet mileage, etc. So why does everybody and I mean everybody slam only Mobile for changing their formula. Even the old geezers at my local indy rant on about it if you bring up using Mobile 1. I find it interesting that the very knowledgeable people that are in the business of tearing these motors down will still only use vague comments like "there may be a better oil for your application". I haven't found one that will say an oil brand caused a catastrophic failure. It also appears that boutique oils have said ZDDP or the like in their customized additive package. So why would it be called snake oil if a consumer adds that to an A40 oil? Is it just me or are some of us at the conclusion that oil brand and additives are just not the problem in our road going modern cars, nor will they be. From reading this forum (which I really enjoy) I surmise that our beloved vehicles are much more likely to be crippled by the home mechanic, deteriorated filters, acidic brake fluid, mice, miss shifts, dropped Christmas ointment boxes, and the like. I don't claim to be an expert but these are my summations.
The right oil, in the right place, tab the right time, in the right quantity doesn't need any "additives".
My direct experience with additives has been negative when used with a quality oil. I have made junk oils perform better with an additive, but the positive results were few and far between.
Again, this is my direct experience, not crap I Googled, or read in an article that was written by someone who knows less about how an engine operates than my 9 year old daughter.
My 911 is under warranty so I won't be going with a Driven oil.
I've switched from Mobil 1 0w-40 to Motul 8100 xCess 5w-40, and I've been adding 1.5 300mL cans of MoS2 to the Motul oil changes.
I'll continue to pursue UOA and monitor the results. I'm ok with 3000 mile oil change intervals. I don't care about saving a few bucks by extending the mileage interval beyond that.
I respect the opinions of those who have a great deal of experience that have weighed in at points in this thread - however I'm not willing to dismiss completely my own experience with driving and maintaining vehicles over the past 50 years. Why am I adding MoS2 to the engine oil? Because the indicators that I get from driving my car and seeing how it performs, as well as reviewing the UOA's convey that it is worthwhile to continue to do so.
My 911 is under warranty so I won't be going with a Driven oil.
I've switched from Mobil 1 0w-40 to Motul 8100 xCess 5w-40, and I've been adding 1.5 300mL cans of MoS2 to the Motul oil changes.
I have an aftermarket warranty and so I won’t use a non A40 either. Won’t use an oil additive like MoS2 either as Porsche also says not to use any oil additives. Once you put an additive in the oil, it’s no longer A40, right?
All I know is that I have been using Motul 8100 excess 5-40 (A40 I believe) and, although consistent, I feel my iron/copper numbers could be lower and this is based on several UOAs; I burn basically no oil over 4k mileage changes. For better or worse, I've added Ceratec shortly after at my last oil change and will see if that made a difference in my next UOA. I will switch to DT-40 for my next change (and on) and from there will see what the UOAs tell me. So whatever I observe will be 'fact' based on the numbers compared over several UOAs. So just the facts ma'am, no conjecture from me once I see the numbers. I just had to say this -carry on...
All I know is that I have been using Motul 8100 excess 5-40 (A40 I believe) and, although consistent, I feel my iron/copper numbers could be lower and this is based on several UOAs; I burn basically no oil over 4k mileage changes. F
or better or worse, I've added Ceratec shortly after at my last oil change and will see if that made a difference in my next UOA. I will switch to DT-40 for my next change (and on) and from there will see what the UOAs tell me. So whatever I observe will be 'fact' based on the numbers compared over several UOAs. So just the facts ma'am, no conjecture from me once I see the numbers. I just had to say this -carry on...
My Iron numbers are better with DT40 than with the Motul - no additives in either. Even when I missed a change interval and went almost 3,000 miles longer the iron numbers with DT40 were still better.
My Iron numbers are better with DT40 than with the Motul - no additives in either. Even when I missed a change interval and went almost 3,000 miles longer the iron numbers with DT40 were still better.
But, what you didn't notice was the retention of the anti- wear package. In that case the Driven rally shined through.
Wear metals aren't my master.. Oxidation, viscosity, and retention of the anti- wear package are the primary ways that I look at an oil, BUT tearing an engine down back to back is how I've gained my experience. The micrometer, and profilometer don't lie.
The use of a non-A40 oil would be the obvious standout red flag.
Use of the MoS2 - I don't think would be, nor would be an issue.
I'm not so much concerned with an engine issue with my car anyway. The potential involvement with the warranty would be with the PDK. With that, if routine maintenance came into question, use of an A40 engine oil would negate any question beyond that.
But, what you didn't notice was the retention of the anti- wear package. In that case the Driven rally shined through.
Wear metals aren't my master.. Oxidation, viscosity, and retention of the anti- wear package are the primary ways that I look at an oil, BUT tearing an engine down back to back is how I've gained my experience. The micrometer, and profilometer don't lie.
Oh, I did, just didn't mention it - you've trained me better than that in what to look for. The ZDDP and viscosity levels stayed nice and high. The only really bad part in this report from me missing the change interval was the acidity of the oil from the long interval (time & mileage). The performance I've seen from DT40 is one reason I use it in the 650HP Cayenne Turbo S too.
I don't know if you've ever tried their GP-1 15W/50 in any of the classic cars but I've seen very good results with that in the 928 when I've run it temporarily between fills of DT50 for various reasons. I'm actually thinking about going to that for the 914 and 928 full time, but have a lot of DT50 on hand...we'll see.
The Driven DT50 I use in my 928 also saved that motor when I cooked it from a loss of almost all the coolant. It damaged the head gasket but had not other internal damage even with too many miles at full gauge temp. It was a perfect storm of a lot of variable that all came together at the same time for that event. The upside, is the new motor has higher compression, more displacement, and is far prettier than the oil soaked, leaky one that came out.
Oh, I did, just didn't mention it - you've trained me better than that in what to look for. The ZDDP and viscosity levels stayed nice and high. The only really bad part in this report from me missing the change interval was the acidity of the oil from the long interval (time & mileage). The performance I've seen from DT40 is one reason I use it in the 650HP Cayenne Turbo S too.
I don't know if you've ever tried their GP-1 15W/50 in any of the classic cars but I've seen very good results with that in the 928 when I've run it temporarily between fills of DT50 for various reasons. I'm actually thinking about going to that for the 914 and 928 full time, but have a lot of DT50 on hand...we'll see.
The Driven DT50 I use in my 928 also saved that motor when I cooked it from a loss of almost all the coolant. It damaged the head gasket but had not other internal damage even with too many miles at full gauge temp. It was a perfect storm of a lot of variable that all came together at the same time for that event. The upside, is the new motor has higher compression, more displacement, and is far prettier than the oil soaked, leaky one that came out.
The use of a non-A40 oil would be the obvious standout red flag.
Use of the MoS2 - I don't think would be, nor would be an issue.
I'm not so much concerned with an engine issue with my car anyway. The potential involvement with the warranty would be with the PDK. With that, if routine maintenance came into question, use of an A40 engine oil would negate any question beyond that.
I want to see the person at a dealership, or a warranty adjuster that can determine from an oil sample if the oil was an A40, or not. The same goes from the UOA labs, half the time the generic guys can't even tell when I write the wrong oil on the report on purpose (since I don't want them to know what I am doing).
"I don't know if you've ever tried their GP-1 15W/50 in any of the classic cars but I've seen very good results with that in the 928 when I've run it temporarily between fills of DT50 for various reasons."
Yeah, the first 55 gallons that was ever blended came to me. I currently have it in 15 of my cars, the newest of them being a 1992. GP-1 exists because of the relationship Charles and I had with ARG in the early days, coupled to the Driven connection. One day I said "If you could couple the ARG base oil with the DT series additive package, that would be killer"
10 years later that happened~
I love oil and additive debates it reminds me of high school arguing about whose girl friend is "better" and learning a few things along the way about the other guys girl friend !!
03-18-2021, 12:37 PM
and learning a few things along the way about the other guys girl friend !!