realq86

Wow, we are back to reality!

Quixotic1

I think 91k is pretty strong for that spec and mileage.

Liste-Renn

My take:

A well maintained (CPO/Fidelity Warranty) SoCal AWD 6MT Sport Chrono Coupe with a squeaky clean DME. Well presented, documented and photographed. No mods except the popular Sharky X-pipe.

Brought $90K+ despite some exterior rash, hi-ish miles and a stated issue with 1st gear engagement when cold (pretty common).

My personal decrements are the comfort seats, AWD, and alcantara delete (required to get ventilated seat option).

MSRP was $121K, so the $30K discount from that seems to reflect bidder discretion versus exuberance.

The litmus test, for me, will be a RWD Coupe 6MT version optioned like this one with a bit more TLC (not a DD).

Those specs recently (last 18 months) approached MSRP and remain the high point for 997 GTS auction prices.

Liste-Renn

Apologies in advance for straying from the 997 GTS subject...

In my opinion, the 991.1 and 991.2 versions of the GTS are examples of "function over form" styling. Not better looking, despite being far more capable.

The 991 versions got longer wheel bases, look/feel bigger and moved towards digital displays, haptic switches and electronic parking brake and steering.

And the .2 evolved into a 3.0 turbo.

Well, the 992 version remains a turbo, but check out the sinister appearance of this one on BaT right now: https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...arrera-gts-12/
(MSRP is $162K)

It looks like a Star Wars Death Trooper...

Prairiedawg

I had a chance to drive the new 992 GTS for 2 laps at Road America by invitation from Porsche last summer. All I can say is wow, what a fantastic car. All I have to do now is figure out which kidney to sell and which child was never meant for college anyways. It was that good.​​​​​​​​​​​​​​I had dreams about that car for a week afterwards. I would definitely buy one if a bag of money fell from the sky. And keep my 997.

cbredesen

Have you driven a 991.2 GTS in similar conditions, or any conditions at all? I'm curious how they compare. I'm a bit put off by the 992 generally but given the prices it doesn't matter much. I am eyeing a 991.2 GTS now that the prices aren't as crazy. I'm curious if there's a big difference with the 992 gen. Any insight is appreciated!

bluelines1974

This one looks pretty great for a higher mileage car. Some very nice interior details.

///Malcontent

I've been lucky enough to have owned a 996 C2s, 997.2 GTS, and 991.1 C2S and driven 991.2 GTS, 992 C2S and 992 GTS. The 992 feels like a higher quality car than the 991 generation. While the base interiors may have the same amount of plastics, the 992 mixes surfaces and materials in a more sophisticated way. Adding leather ups the ante and the GTS interior, with leather/racetec, red or blue contrast stitch is a very nice place to spend time in. I have a friend that traded his 991.1 C2S cabrio for a 992 C2S cabrio and it's no contest - the 992 is better in every way. Even the digital dash is better. Some may complain the 992 is a bigger car, but the length and wheelbase are essentially the same as the 991. Now they are all wide(ish) body. I think with the larger wheels, wider front track, and full-width rear lighting, the 992 appears dramatically wider, but it's not.

The 3.0 turbo engines starting with the 991.2 are real honeys and the 992 is just that much better. Driving the 992, turbo lag is un-noticeable unless you really go looking for it where the 991.2 has a hint that can be felt fairly often. And the sound tuning with the 992 engine is really good. The 3.0 liter turbo engines are conservatively rated from the factory, respond well to tuning, and seem to be durable. The as-tested numbers of 0-60mpt in 2.8 seconds and quarter mile of 10.9 seconds at 128mph (PDK), show the 992 GTS is legitimately fast.

The 992 handles better, has more feedback, and better steering than the 991. Porsche improved the steering with each model release and it's the best ever in the 992. Does it have the same feedback as hydraulic-assisted systems in the 996/997? No, but it's better than nearly every other modern car out there. The 992 suspension feels much more sophisticated than the 991. And it is - shock tuning is better, front track is wider, drive modes are better, and the availability of rear wheel steering raises the envelope another few percentage points. Could you live without RWS? Sure but there's a reason Porsche includes it on GT models.

If you can, drive the 991.2 and 992. I think you'll be surprised just how much of a leap the 992 is.

cbredesen

Really great assessment, thank you! I'd love to move to a 991.2 for a year or two and then spec a 992.2 the way I want (aerokit, GTS interior, etc.)
edit: 992.2, not 991.2

ThomasCarreraGTS

https://www.elferspot.com/en/car/por...aign=Suchagent

Price seems real high for the miles.

Jon Overton

That's very very high to me.

Tcc1999

I can’t quibble about anything you say - it’s really a nice write up. But it gives me pause to think, and I keep coming back to the fact that PAG/VWPAG has always made every succeeding iteration better than the last. I mean (random starting place) SC<964<993<996?<997.1<997.2<991.1<991.2<992 - each model in many ways is better than the previous one. But the previous models, despite their antiquity, continue to have cult-like followings. Why is this? What is it about a car that doesn’t perform as well as later models? Why are they still desirable despite the fact that they are not as well sorted as newer models? I have a 997.2 GTS and my only answer would be that I just get more enjoyment from the less capable 2012 than I would from a 2022 model. I know it may not make any sense, but it falls along the same lines as reasoning for a person with a 964 RS America may also not want to upgrade. Emotion and Porsche cars are funny things - they go hand in hand, and when that happens most logic goes out the window. That’s just me though. I don’t know nearly as much about cars as many here (bicycles, yes - cars not so much).

sandwedge

I'm in the same boat as you except my GTS is one year older than yours. But I always like to trade since I like the latest and the greatest so I've tried both the 991 and the 992. They're nice in a lot of ways but after each 991/992 ride I'm always happy to get back in my "old" 997 GTS. I've held on to this car longer than any other car I've owned. Always traded every three years or thereabouts but neither the 991 or 992 gives me the urge to give up my 997 GTS. Perfect 911 edition imo.

So I just wonder what's next. I can't keep this car forever. Already have 70K miles on it but only put 2,500 or tops 3,000 miles a year on it so I have room to go.

Liste-Renn

I believe you answered your own questions in the last sentence.

"Improvement" in raw performance numbers does not always equate to a better driving experience.
Case in point: ABS, PSM, PTC, RWS, ABD, PDCC, PDEM, Wet mode...nannies ad nauseum.
My mom can drive a modern 911 fast and be capable and safe doing so.

Add in PDK, auto rev matching, Lane Keep Assist, Collision and Brake Assist...it is blatantly apparent that the car is covering up for a bad driver rather than a good driver adapting to any car/chassis/engine/ transmission shortcomings. The human is considered by the Porsche engineers as the weak link. A car designed with trailing throttle oversteer and other handling quirks can, in the right hands, be optimized for maximum driving fun and performance. But only by a skilled driver who understands the unique chassis dynamics inherent in the 911 platform.

Add in an NA engine with a power band biased toward the upper rev ranges that can only be exploited (in a manual transmission version) by a driver adept at finding the correct gear and maintaining revs in the sweet spot of the power band...it becomes patently obvious that the 991.1/991.2 and 992 are designed and built for a driver who can simply aim the car towards an apex and expect everything to come out OK... despite an incorrect braking point, choice of line, gear selection and/or engine speed. What's not to like? Even my mom can do it. And she's 87.

The maxim: "It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow" applies here. In spades. Going faster is not so much a function of driver skill as car capability. Driving a Porsche GT car on the street is an exercise in overkill and overpower. Wringing the neck of almost any post 997 911 is nigh impossible on public roads. Any high rev motoring in 3rd gear or higher is felonious "lose your license" activity. "Straight roads are for fast cars, curves are for fast drivers". Hell yes.

Sandwedge and I have traded observations about commercial aircraft evolving into machines whose automation levels diminish the skills (and situational awareness) of the operators. Yeah, the pilots pretty much become automation monitors rather than manipulators of flight controls and power levels to bend the machine towards the will of the pilot and his/her ideal perfection of the flight path. In a fly-by-wire and auto-throttle Airbus, good pilots become mediocre pilots and poor pilots become mediocre pilots, as well. Ergo, my mom can drive a modern 911 reasonably well, with minimal/zero instruction. Whoo-f'ing-hoo. And so can I, with little specialized skill or practice. Which is nothing to brag about, except maybe your lap times.

The auction site prices transparently reflect a rebellion against the automation and safety systems that are removing the human soul from the driving experience. I, for, one, enjoy using all four limbs to operate a 911 at the edge. I alone am responsible for slow in, fast out trail braking, rev matching into the optimal gear for turn exit while absorbing/processing exquisite feedback from the front tires patches through a hydro-mechanical rack and pinion steering rack.

IYK,YK. Those that do, pay a bit more for a 6MT, RWD, NA-engine analog version of the venerable 911. That is why 997 values have marched towards eclipsing the more "capable" and faster 991.1, and perhaps eventually the 991.2 ...'cause for many it's more about driver involvement and reward than 'Ring and 0-60 times.

Just my $.02, YMMV and probably does. Just serve me up more "widow maker" and less poseur driver automation nannies. I drive with the PSE switched OFF for a reason...pride of optimal operation is its own reward. A perfect heel-and-toe downshift is not any quicker than a perfect auto rev matched PDK shift- but I did it myself, and can claim mental credit for it. Lap times? Meh. Fun times? Hoo-rah.

Ironman88

2012 Carrera 4 GTS (PDK) available here locally. 15k miles. Offered as a CPO car at $99,900...