Chinese PIWIS clone
01-04-2020, 09:18 PM
#16
01-04-2020, 09:48 PM
#17
I'm not looking to set up a PIWIS counterfeiting ring for crying out loud. Good grief, this board has lots of great commenters and some amazing people but some folks really take the cake. If you'd actually like to understand what I'm doing and why I'm doing it read my sticky "guide to repairing a pdk transmission".
I gave you my differing opinion based solely on that context. I also offered what I felt was a helpful opinion on the purchase. I've read many threads on other forums where people thought they were getting the real PIWIS, but found out the Chinese version lacked many features. Money down the toilet. Therefore, I was trying to save you some money and frustration. But what did you do? Basically called me out as pompous. Remember, when you're trying to find a solution, sometimes a diversity of opinion is valuable. A yes-man is just a virtual cheerleader.
Last edited by NuttyProfessor; 01-04-2020 at 10:15 PM.
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Darkboyz68 (04-02-2022)
01-04-2020, 09:51 PM
#18
Three Wheelin'
A fair price is what the market will bear. There are plenty of knock off wheels around and the difference in price between what those can be sold for and real OEM wheels can be sold for is set in part by the consumer. There are quite a number of folks replacing their steering wheels on 997 cars.. I have not seen any replica steering wheels. They might exist but I haven't heard of anyone buying fake Porsche steering wheels. I've bought two Porsche Sport Design steering wheels from Suncoast. If they were priced as crazily as this system then there would be a demand for knockoffs and a company would start selling them. It's up to the buyer to determine if the quality is suitable for their money. With GT3 bumpers for example.. they aren't priced so unreasonably and people buy the OEM part regularly. There are cheap knockoffs with fitment problems and that is also known. The GT3 RS spoiler is a different story. Those are priced at $15k+ for OEM so there are a lot of knockoffs. Of varying quality. Some folks do get OEM Porsche Motorsport decklids and spoilers but my impression is most do not.
It's up to Porsche how they want to price their goods. The marketplace sorts out the rest.
This whole cryfest over intellectual property is a bit unfounded since Porsche owners are not a cheap lot who will abandon the brand at the first sign of a cheaper option
quite the opposite actually. Porsche guys love their OEM hardware and gear. But they are not all idiots who will wait for a profitable business to decide to be reasonable and not charge whatever it can get away with. If Porsche is going to "take the ****" then guys who've spent a lot of money with the brand are only going to put up with it to a point. It won't be putting a dent in the profits or the SW engineers salary.
01-04-2020, 10:13 PM
#19
A fair price is what the market will bear. There are plenty of knock off wheels around and the difference in price between what those can be sold for and real OEM wheels can be sold for is set in part by the consumer. There are quite a number of folks replacing their steering wheels on 997 cars.. I have not seen any replica steering wheels. They might exist but I haven't heard of anyone buying fake Porsche steering wheels. I've bought two Porsche Sport Design steering wheels from Suncoast. If they were priced as crazily as this system then there would be a demand for knockoffs and a company would start selling them. It's up to the buyer to determine if the quality is suitable for their money. With GT3 bumpers for example.. they aren't priced so unreasonably and people buy the OEM part regularly. There are cheap knockoffs with fitment problems and that is also known. The GT3 RS spoiler is a different story. Those are priced at $15k+ for OEM so there are a lot of knockoffs. Of varying quality. Some folks do get OEM Porsche Motorsport decklids and spoilers but my impression is most do not.
It's up to Porsche how they want to price their goods. The marketplace sorts out the rest.
This whole cryfest over intellectual property is a bit unfounded since Porsche owners are not a cheap lot who will abandon the brand at the first sign of a cheaper option
quite the opposite actually. Porsche guys love their OEM hardware and gear. But they are not all idiots who will wait for a profitable business to decide to be reasonable and not charge whatever it can get away with. If Porsche is going to "take the ****" then guys who've spent a lot of money with the brand are only going to put up with it to a point. It won't be putting a dent in the profits or the SW engineers salary.
It's up to Porsche how they want to price their goods. The marketplace sorts out the rest.
This whole cryfest over intellectual property is a bit unfounded since Porsche owners are not a cheap lot who will abandon the brand at the first sign of a cheaper option
quite the opposite actually. Porsche guys love their OEM hardware and gear. But they are not all idiots who will wait for a profitable business to decide to be reasonable and not charge whatever it can get away with. If Porsche is going to "take the ****" then guys who've spent a lot of money with the brand are only going to put up with it to a point. It won't be putting a dent in the profits or the SW engineers salary.
Do you think it's lawful for a person or entity to steal another person's product and resell it as their own?
There was a person that sold me a set of what they claimed as "factory BBS Carrera wheels" on Craigslist. When I got them home and cleaned them up, I began to realize they were different than the OEM that came with my car. After a little more investigation, I found out they were Chinese knock offs. I called the guy, and explained the problem. He tried to cuss me out and threaten me, but I didn't bat an eye. I quickly explained to him that the man that was with me was not only a cop (specifically a fraud detective) but also a Marine and would gladly cut him a new ******* and drag what's left of him into small claims court. How would you like that I asked. He said, "Sorry, I'll refund you money". I ended up buying OEM wheels later.
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Darkboyz68 (04-02-2022)
01-04-2020, 10:29 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
Maybe the OP should have said he feels Porsche was disloyal to him as a buyer, so he is going to value their loyalty at the same level. He has chosen to find another way to continue enjoying their brand anyway instead of changing brands, and is sharing it with fellow enthusiasts (very very few owners read RL) so that if they have a bad experience they can mitigate the damage and continue to enjoy the brand.
Laws are not ethical things.
(looks like you were posting while I was posting and that you are not ok with stealing ideas, but you are ok with "cutting someone a new a--hole" or using threats of intimidation of physical harm)
Let's get on with enjoying our cars, I want to read more. Let Porsche send him a letter if they want him to stop making posts like this.
Laws are not ethical things.
(looks like you were posting while I was posting and that you are not ok with stealing ideas, but you are ok with "cutting someone a new a--hole" or using threats of intimidation of physical harm)
Let's get on with enjoying our cars, I want to read more. Let Porsche send him a letter if they want him to stop making posts like this.
Last edited by ThunderRolls; 01-04-2020 at 10:33 PM. Reason: edit
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01-04-2020, 10:55 PM
#21
Purty purty pweease sweet talk didn't work with this guy. Being nice went out the door when he started cussin' me out over the phone before I had a chance to offer a solution or even hear me out. He basically lost it after I said I wanted my money back. He knew what he had plain and simple.
Oh, and I can't take credit for the a-hole line.... that came from my Marine buddy after he learned the guy tried to push a fraudulent product over on us. He was serious. Don't mess with a Marine.
01-04-2020, 11:06 PM
#22
Nordschleife Master
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Doug, if I remember correctly, you're a product liability lawyer, is that right? Therefore, you've made an oath to uphold the law as an agent of the court, correct? Do you believe in patent and copyright law?
It's not against the law to put a price on a product or service even if it's outrageous, correct? Therefore, if we disagree with the price of a product or service, we have the right to take our business elsewhere, correct? And because something is "overpriced", that doesn't give anyone the right to copy it without permission, wouldn't you agree?
Then why burn me to the stake or act like "my principles" are out of touch?
First of all, I applaud PV997's efforts to find a solution to the pdk problem. I know all about Porsche problems... I'm a 996 owner! Heck, the first thing I did was put Jake Raby's IMS Solution invention into my car and it came at a price. I didn't try to find a copycat product. I gladly paid what I believe is the best product. And yes, I've personally experienced failure of an expensive automatic transmission on one of my cars. (Sorry, my Porsche is a manual) But the car was very expensive and the transmission grenaded itself at very low miles. I took the car to the dealership and the service advisor, said "Sorry sir, but those transmissions are non-serviceable and it will have to be replaced." They wanted $7,000 for another transmission plus labor. I asked to speak with the service manager. He came over and I said, "Let's cut the BS, please tell me why you wont service a transmission and why the only option is replacement?" He went on to say that it was policy because they could NOT warranty the work AND they didn't have a trained technician to do invasive work on transmissions. Replacement would minimize any liability on the part of the dealership or brand if the replacement failed. Therefore, we took our business elsewhere. Yes, believe it or not, Nutty Professor didn't drink the Kool Aid and walked out of the door. After that, I took some time calling around and found a respected transmission specialist. He repaired the transmission for just $1,400.00. Car ran beautifully!
Now, one last time, I'm not against the OP's efforts, but I wouldn't give any person or group money for a counterfeit product. IMHO, find another way. Heck, I've heard many people have gotten independent shops to allow a free hookup on the PIWIS especially if it turns into a business opportunity. Maybe PV997 can explain the PDK endeavor to some of the shops in his area or local PCA, and maybe someone will lend access to their PIWIS system?
It's not against the law to put a price on a product or service even if it's outrageous, correct? Therefore, if we disagree with the price of a product or service, we have the right to take our business elsewhere, correct? And because something is "overpriced", that doesn't give anyone the right to copy it without permission, wouldn't you agree?
Then why burn me to the stake or act like "my principles" are out of touch?
First of all, I applaud PV997's efforts to find a solution to the pdk problem. I know all about Porsche problems... I'm a 996 owner! Heck, the first thing I did was put Jake Raby's IMS Solution invention into my car and it came at a price. I didn't try to find a copycat product. I gladly paid what I believe is the best product. And yes, I've personally experienced failure of an expensive automatic transmission on one of my cars. (Sorry, my Porsche is a manual) But the car was very expensive and the transmission grenaded itself at very low miles. I took the car to the dealership and the service advisor, said "Sorry sir, but those transmissions are non-serviceable and it will have to be replaced." They wanted $7,000 for another transmission plus labor. I asked to speak with the service manager. He came over and I said, "Let's cut the BS, please tell me why you wont service a transmission and why the only option is replacement?" He went on to say that it was policy because they could NOT warranty the work AND they didn't have a trained technician to do invasive work on transmissions. Replacement would minimize any liability on the part of the dealership or brand if the replacement failed. Therefore, we took our business elsewhere. Yes, believe it or not, Nutty Professor didn't drink the Kool Aid and walked out of the door. After that, I took some time calling around and found a respected transmission specialist. He repaired the transmission for just $1,400.00. Car ran beautifully!
Now, one last time, I'm not against the OP's efforts, but I wouldn't give any person or group money for a counterfeit product. IMHO, find another way. Heck, I've heard many people have gotten independent shops to allow a free hookup on the PIWIS especially if it turns into a business opportunity. Maybe PV997 can explain the PDK endeavor to some of the shops in his area or local PCA, and maybe someone will lend access to their PIWIS system?
RE: Intellectual Property Issues
My old old firm (left a year ago) was one of the top 3 entertainment and IP firms in the US for copyright and royalty disputes. I worked on a few of those IP cases and am currently monitoring some $100 mm plus software royalty cases. My old firm handled Napster and ITunes litigation on behalf of the recording artists. I was second chair in the Blurred Lines case where Richard B and I represented the Marvin Gaye Estate (largest copyright verdict ever) against Robin Thicke, Pharrell and TI and was second chair in the infamous SNMP software royalty cases on behalf of the plaintiff, SNMP, resulting in about 1/2 billion in publicly disclosed settlements.
I have since somewhat semi retired if there is such a thing at 52.
My oath is to represent clients and not pass judgment. Neithet I nor you, however, possess enough information to have an informed opinion about the protectable intellectual property rights at issue with the PIWIS.
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01-04-2020, 11:15 PM
#23
Brother, I am too ADD to read all of that . . . and watching Tennessee game.
RE: Intellectual Property Issues
My old old firm (left a year ago) was one of the top 3 entertainment and IP firms in the US for copyright and royalty disputes. I worked on a few of those IP cases and am currently monitoring some $100 mm plus software royalty cases. My old firm handled Napster and ITunes litigation on behalf of the recording artists. I was second chair in the Blurred Lines case where Richard B and I represented the Marvin Gaye Estate (largest copyright verdict ever) against Robin Thicke, Pharrell and TI and we handled the billion dollar plus SNMP software royalty cases on behalf of the plaintiff, SNMP, resulting in about 1/2 billion in settlements. I have since somewhat semi retired if there is such a thing at 52, but still serve several clients and monitor large commercial and class action stuff.
My oath is to represent clients and not pass judgment. Neithet I nor you, however, possess enough information to have an informed opinion about the protectable intellectual property rights at issue with the PIWIS.
RE: Intellectual Property Issues
My old old firm (left a year ago) was one of the top 3 entertainment and IP firms in the US for copyright and royalty disputes. I worked on a few of those IP cases and am currently monitoring some $100 mm plus software royalty cases. My old firm handled Napster and ITunes litigation on behalf of the recording artists. I was second chair in the Blurred Lines case where Richard B and I represented the Marvin Gaye Estate (largest copyright verdict ever) against Robin Thicke, Pharrell and TI and we handled the billion dollar plus SNMP software royalty cases on behalf of the plaintiff, SNMP, resulting in about 1/2 billion in settlements. I have since somewhat semi retired if there is such a thing at 52, but still serve several clients and monitor large commercial and class action stuff.
My oath is to represent clients and not pass judgment. Neithet I nor you, however, possess enough information to have an informed opinion about the protectable intellectual property rights at issue with the PIWIS.
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pirahna (01-05-2020)
01-04-2020, 11:38 PM
#24
Rennlist Member
Thanks for the pontification it was very helpful!
Yes, I'm coming on a public forum to ask for help to figure out how they can replace a $30 part in their "failed" PDK transmission rather than pay $20 thousand to Porsche for a new one. Unlike you, I've actually studied this issue in detail. It's clear Porsche made a calculated business decision based on customer demographics (affluent, white collar, unlikely to get their hands dirty) to pretend this transmission was unfixable because they knew they could get away with it. It's a lie, the transmission is very repairable and there is no justification for it being sealed. What Porsche is doing likely violates consumer protection laws in the US but no one has held them accountable.
I'm using the software for my own use, to read and set my own codes, on my own car, at my own risk. I'm doing this to better understand how the PDK works to help inform other who aren't willing to bend over and take it when the dealership tells them they need to drop $20k on a new transmission. I'm not looking to set up a PIWIS counterfeiting ring for crying out loud. Good grief, this board has lots of great commenters and some amazing people but some folks really take the cake.
If you'd actually like to understand what I'm doing and why I'm doing it read my sticky "guide to repairing a pdk transmission".
Yes, I'm coming on a public forum to ask for help to figure out how they can replace a $30 part in their "failed" PDK transmission rather than pay $20 thousand to Porsche for a new one. Unlike you, I've actually studied this issue in detail. It's clear Porsche made a calculated business decision based on customer demographics (affluent, white collar, unlikely to get their hands dirty) to pretend this transmission was unfixable because they knew they could get away with it. It's a lie, the transmission is very repairable and there is no justification for it being sealed. What Porsche is doing likely violates consumer protection laws in the US but no one has held them accountable.
I'm using the software for my own use, to read and set my own codes, on my own car, at my own risk. I'm doing this to better understand how the PDK works to help inform other who aren't willing to bend over and take it when the dealership tells them they need to drop $20k on a new transmission. I'm not looking to set up a PIWIS counterfeiting ring for crying out loud. Good grief, this board has lots of great commenters and some amazing people but some folks really take the cake.
If you'd actually like to understand what I'm doing and why I'm doing it read my sticky "guide to repairing a pdk transmission".
I wish I knew if other car makers make it as difficult. I think the reason we talk about this here is because there are more PDK failures than some other brands and that simple failures like a leaky seal (in my case) would cost $15k to repair.
You go dude.
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Doug H (01-04-2020)
01-05-2020, 12:05 AM
#25
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Hey guys, I took my family up to the mountains for the day and have been offline since this morning. It was not my intent to cause a ruckus and hopefully we can agree to disagree. I'm just glad I quickly edited what I originally replied as it was way over the top and not appropriate. Count to ten as they say.
I'll continue to post what I find and make updates to the main PDK post. A few folks have already sent me very helpful info and we're getting closer and closer to getting this figured out. The main issue now is finding replacement parts for the gearshift select sensor/RPM sensor (the Chinese aftermarket supplier noted in the main post is out of stock for the time being). I have the OEM PN's but neither Porsche nor ZF are making the parts available to the public as far as I can tell. If anyone has background in consumer protection law I'd be interested in chatting as I think we'll need to apply pressure to get them to sell these parts to owners and shops.
I'll continue to post what I find and make updates to the main PDK post. A few folks have already sent me very helpful info and we're getting closer and closer to getting this figured out. The main issue now is finding replacement parts for the gearshift select sensor/RPM sensor (the Chinese aftermarket supplier noted in the main post is out of stock for the time being). I have the OEM PN's but neither Porsche nor ZF are making the parts available to the public as far as I can tell. If anyone has background in consumer protection law I'd be interested in chatting as I think we'll need to apply pressure to get them to sell these parts to owners and shops.
01-05-2020, 12:42 AM
#26
Rennlist Member
Damn straight!
Purty purty pweease sweet talk didn't work with this guy. Being nice went out the door when he started cussin' me out over the phone before I had a chance to offer a solution or even hear me out. He basically lost it after I said I wanted my money back. He knew what he had plain and simple.
Oh, and I can't take credit for the a-hole line.... that came from my Marine buddy after he learned the guy tried to push a fraudulent product over on us. He was serious. Don't mess with a Marine.
Purty purty pweease sweet talk didn't work with this guy. Being nice went out the door when he started cussin' me out over the phone before I had a chance to offer a solution or even hear me out. He basically lost it after I said I wanted my money back. He knew what he had plain and simple.
Oh, and I can't take credit for the a-hole line.... that came from my Marine buddy after he learned the guy tried to push a fraudulent product over on us. He was serious. Don't mess with a Marine.
My post was to merely carve out the arbitrariness of the law and see what was really going on - OP had a loyalty conflict in his mind. Porsche is free to read these boards and send him a cease and desist.
I too am an attorney but have very limited experience with copy write/patent filings and litigation, but have enough to know the laws and rules are very arbitrary (Nothing like Doug H). I would never go into that arena without an experienced attorney in that field. I spent time with a firm I hired once on a case, and they blew my mind about the intricacies and arbitrary angles of the law -- and I am an attorney!
DougH might appreciate that one time I was there and a new client had presented a case so the firm had to find out if they had any client conflicts on these secret subject matters, without disclosing what the subject matter was. It sounded like a game of charades, but without an answer. (I have a client in the "hunting product business" ... anyone else? Yes? Ok, his hunting business involves use of his product only during spring months? Are we still in conflict? and on and on )
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ALEV8 (01-06-2020)
01-05-2020, 03:37 PM
#27
I never unlawfully used physical force on anyone in this case. Didn't have to. I find it interesting how you quickly call something like "physical violence" a crime in a blanket statement, but you won't admit that theft (i.e. pirating software) is not. I don't have a problem calling out theft for what it is. What you call "physical violence", can also be a justifiable use of force or self defense. I don't have a problem defending my property or standing my ground if I feel there is a perceived threat to me or my family. If someone attempts to harm my children or break into my house, you will be met with physical harm. Sorry, I will not offer free mental health screening or therapy at this point. Something tells me you would do the same thing is someone tried to harm your family.
First of all, there was plenty of evidence to prove fraud. The person claimed the wheels were Porsche OEM factory wheels and listed them as such on Craigslist. Everything was in writing and had clear photographs. The guy self incriminated himself in writing and didn't know it until I pointed it out. Once he realized his mistake and risked going to court, he changed his tune and apologized. There's not need to bring up the specifics. If you don't believe it, then so be it. I really don't care. I have nothing to gain from your approval. Again, if the table was turned and you bought something that was sold to you as genuine and it turned out to be a fake, you'd probably look to restitution.
Enough said on this issue. Let's move on shall we?
Enough said on this issue. Let's move on shall we?
01-05-2020, 03:46 PM
#28
Hey guys, I took my family up to the mountains for the day and have been offline since this morning. It was not my intent to cause a ruckus and hopefully we can agree to disagree. I'm just glad I quickly edited what I originally replied as it was way over the top and not appropriate. Count to ten as they say.
01-05-2020, 08:47 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
Might not be totally relevant, but I'm starting to think that regarding PDK, Porsche is no better than pharmaceutical companies by hiding facts and taking people hostage.
I knew better than buy PDK, but if you are able to come up with fixes and ways to work on it, I might very well change my mind and go with it. My wife would sure be happy to be able to drive it and later this year, she wants a Macan that I am reluctant to buy because of the PDK since we plan on keeping the next one for a long long time...but if you can bring hope😁
01-06-2020, 04:58 PM
#30
1. Buy a manual, sorry PDK guys.
2. Don't argue with IP attorneys about IP (or attorneys at all), you won't win.
3. Buy a manual, again.
4. Hey OP pretty cool you're willing to take a risk, burn the hours, and try software/hardware on your own car. Good on you. I hope you succeed. Keep the giants honest IMHO.
5. Let's get back to agreeing that we love these cars, and don't want an $18k PDK died bill, and that we constantly visit here and do Porsche repair ourselves to NOT pay retail.......
6. Don't get in fights or threaten anybody, as you may just get your *** handed to you in rapid succession by a 115lb girl/guy.
DISCLAIMER: I attended law school and have practiced brazilian jiujitsu for 9 years (I teach it as my profession), and have been fixing my 997 since I bought it, AND love Rennlist, thus I speak from experience.
SIDEBAR: Is the Durametric Pro insufficient though? What else is a Carrera owner going to need a PIWIS or clone for? I will profess my ignorance here, and I do own the Durametric!
2. Don't argue with IP attorneys about IP (or attorneys at all), you won't win.
3. Buy a manual, again.
4. Hey OP pretty cool you're willing to take a risk, burn the hours, and try software/hardware on your own car. Good on you. I hope you succeed. Keep the giants honest IMHO.
5. Let's get back to agreeing that we love these cars, and don't want an $18k PDK died bill, and that we constantly visit here and do Porsche repair ourselves to NOT pay retail.......
6. Don't get in fights or threaten anybody, as you may just get your *** handed to you in rapid succession by a 115lb girl/guy.
DISCLAIMER: I attended law school and have practiced brazilian jiujitsu for 9 years (I teach it as my profession), and have been fixing my 997 since I bought it, AND love Rennlist, thus I speak from experience.
SIDEBAR: Is the Durametric Pro insufficient though? What else is a Carrera owner going to need a PIWIS or clone for? I will profess my ignorance here, and I do own the Durametric!
Last edited by ALEV8; 01-06-2020 at 05:15 PM.
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