This should be the end of the discussion for so many threads. I have bowed out of a lot of these recent threads because I already spent all my 911 engine forum response credits for many years to come on these 997 engine topics in other threads. I am on 10 years of blissful ownership and almost 90k miles on my 997.1 and to this day I absolutely love my 997.1.

A 4.0 build is most likely in my future. I have accepted that and I am ok with it. In the mean time I am enjoying every second and every pull to redline from my original engine as long as it will last. I have a friend who was absolutely scared away from the 996/997 IMS/Bore Scoring drama and went out and purchased an air-cooled 911 in order to bypass any possibility of an engine rebuild. With no IMS or bore scoring fears to keep him up at night he felt really good about his decision. Even rubbed it in a few times, but then 3 months in to his 911 dreams his air-cooled bullet proof engine started smoking badly. He paid well over $20,000 to fix bad valve guides and have the top end rebuilt better than ever and some bottom end work as well. I just shrug my shoulders at him. Luck of the draw.

I have said repeatedly, there are no guarantees in life and I am not just talking about Porsche engines. We can all talk about which engine will last a life time, but for some of us it will be our 997 911 engines that outlast our own lives.

Let's keep things in perspective. ALL Cars will need repairs or some sort of major refresh in their life times. Some times it is just luck of the draw, but to this day, based on my experience, I will continue to sing the praises of my 997.1. Yet, I would be a fool to think any 911 engine will last forever. ALL Engines wear out, period. At almost 14 years old and close to 90k "bat out of hell miles" my 997 is still pure joy to drive and that can be said for countless thousands of happy 997.1 owners.

In many ways part of the Porsche 911 dream is that you have to pay to play at this level. There is no getting around it. Everyone who chooses to drive these cars will pay the Porsche Tax at some point in some way. The time to defend any Porsche engine as bullet proof and lasting forever has past and to be honest, unrealisitic. An engine may last several owners, but in the long term and at some point it will need some tender love and care.

As time marches on and at this point in the game I would caution any buyer purchasing this late in the game that they are taking a risk. Whether it is engine or transmission issues a 10 year plus old car comes with 10 plus years of old worn parts and a lot of variables in driving and maintenance habits. Let's not forget most of us purchased our 911s so we could redline them all the way to the grocery store and all the way back home. That is the joy and excitement we paid for. When it comes time to rebuild, I am ok with it. If you are not ok with that possibility, then you should not be purchasing a 10 plus year old Porsche 911. Stick with newer models and turn it in when the lease/warranty expires.

 

Hit and miss but Porsche buyers have easily been the most difficult to deal with among the sport cars I've sold over the years. Jake's story of the guy who bitched about a stain inside the glove box sums it up well imo.

 

Over 25 years ago (when we were new to the car business) we experienced our first introduction into the difficulties selling into the Porsche market. A beautiful 944 we had prepared fully for sale was bought by a retired guy who had always wanted one.

We had done all sorts to improve the car. New brakes, head gasket, decoke, belts, gearbox bearing, trim, paintwork, tyres etc and it was a superb car.

Some weeks later - we received a call saying he was very disappointed at our poor standards of preparation and went on the explain that after he took the steering wheel off, moved the seat back and was lying on his back upside down (with his head where the pedals go) and using a powerful torch - looking upwards - there was a small crosshead screw missing from the under dash board.

Unfortunately I laughed (thinking he was joking) and that didn't go down well either!

Then there was another light metallic blue 944 (with lacquer already flaking off the bonnet) that came in filthy for a new cam belt. Our complementary wash flaked a small patch more lacquer off the bonnet for which the owner wanted us to pay for a full Porsche main dealer respray costing thousands. More recently several months after service an owner claimed for 4 new tyres because he had just had a puncture and figured the nail must have got in the tyre when it was at our workshops and as it couldn't possibly have happened on his long journey home or in the weeks that had passed bye since and as he couldn't get the same tyres any more and needed matched ones all round - he expected a full set FOC - and so it goes on and on - it can be soul destroying.

And so - with experience - we all learned how to manage and avoid such confrontations - but although I can only speak for myself - I think they might have some agreement that the difficulties never go away especially when someone wants a cheap engine rebuild but expects it to be as good as a more expensive one and last as long! and has the Internet to bitch on.

It probably makes us more inclined to stick to our opinions and be less patient exploring alternatives and discussing differences that might fuel others to develop them into bigger issues than we think they are anyway.

It is also important to remember that Jake and Charles are Countrymen that have developed solutions over many years together and successfully mutually traded (so are unlikely to disagree on their joint solutions) and have already (and continue to) develop technology together whereas we developed our own solutions quite separately in the days before Internet communication on the Other side of the World with different experiences, qualifications, areas of special expertise and resources and for different markets. But whereas we all originally developed our products and solutions for our home markets we are now all International players (currently we supply more than 50 Countries the latest being to Thailand).

Those potential customers seek out suppliers from anywhere else in the World and therefore are interested in the differences between us when deciding who and what to choose - this then leads to questions about why we do some things differently and/or report different causes on the Internet, So whereas neither of us seem to want to interfere with each others markets - the International nature of World trade inevitably brings us into the same arena. Quite amazing then that we actually have so much in common and a great shame it is so difficult to merge some of it together..

But the Internet has unfortunately added to this potential for disagreement between specialists by enabling people to both strut out their own theories (when they are not experienced or qualified) and worse still pick holes in differences of opinion between specialists even located in different Countries.

All this handicaps the ability of those specialists from benefitting from each others R & D through International technology exchange- by making them protective and defensive of their positions against the norm and fearing it could backfire or provide more negative ammunition than simply sticking to their own positions.

Again I cannot speak for Jake or Charles but at Hartech - we get so used to defending what we know against these public Internet attacks (on theoretical, personal and technical levels) that what we do becomes difficult to communicate with each other in an open format where it would be necessary to find common ground and mutually benefit from it.

We are also so busy because of the good service the public recognise us all providing - that we don't really have the time or need to communicate with each other and it can seem easier to concentrate on our own workloads than spend time arguing about who is right or wrong about some minor technical difference when our products are all doing well - just to portray a common position about causes and solutions.

We did try but it was clearly difficult and as I have frequently said - it doesn't really matter as long as we provide good quality solutions that work - and we do.

This is why we presented our reports in a selected requested format with an NDA to try and keep any differences away from the Internet and to try and limit arguments about any differences they contained. It might not have worked but at least we tried.

In some areas one of us might have carried out more research into one small aspect of the problems and understand it better and the opposite in other areas and yes it would be nice if we could share that between us and present agreement on the subjects to the market - but in so doing there would be areas where one or other of us might have to admit that they hadn't quite thought out one area correctly and this we will find difficult to admit to when we stick our necks out so much to provide these good solutions anyway and have to get used to trusting our own judgement and ignoring what anyone else thinks. There is always more than one GOOD way to solve a problem - some might theoretically be slightly better than others but if they both work just as well in practice - does it really matter?

We do however - have common ground on a lot of things like Nikasil plated alloy cylinders, LTT, etc that should give confidence to owners considering alternatives.

But our minor differences unfortunately provide a good source of fun to others when we have different opinions about some of the causes and solutions - but as long as they work well - it doesn't really matter - and they do appear to work very well indeed in our own markets. Where we will increasingly have to compete is in International markets.

It creates a strange situation in which I think we all have sympathy and respect for each other for managing the same problems very well, therefore have no desire or interest in making things more difficult for each other (than they already are) yet when asked specific technical questions on the |Internet - feel obliged to respond and that can make differences of opinion public - that keep us apart.

I regard all this as more of a consequence of dealing with Porsche owners in the relatively new and potentially toxic environment of the Internet and specialist forums.

I am not sure if there is an answer to that or if so what it is but we are all doing really well anyway so perhaps we just have to paddle our own canoes and try not to make things any more difficult for each other than they already are- -well that is my position anyway!

Baz

 

Ah, people eh, the same everywhere.

That's why I refused to manage end-user devices (laptops, tablets etc.) because it would require dealing with people, and every single person always has an opinion. I prefer dealing with networks, cloud and data centres. At least when something's complaining that's because we screwed up not because someone feels that their opinion needs to be heard.

 

This is the perspective everyone should leave this thread with. That and the fact that we are all pretty fortunate to be in a financial position to even be having these worries. Some people are worried about how they will give their kids a proper Xmas and we are debating what might or might not be wrong with our Porsche engines!

 

Twice in the last 18 months I've had two customers that didn't;lt live long enough to drive their 997 again. We had one of the cars here (almost done) and the other was on the wait list to send the car in.

It puts things into perspective when it happens.

I am now leaving this thread. Tomorrow is our last day of business for this decade, and I'll be spending my "time off" to finish installing the cams in an R44 (4.4L) 997.1 engine, and working with my daughter to assemble her first 914 engine, which we will convert to upright using my DTM cooling system, and install into our German Army beetle.


Thermal dispersant coating applied, machine work done, and ready for an 8 year old to build it!


Merry Christmas to all.

 

^^^^^^^^Have a nice Christmas.

 

That and healthy, happy children. So many have real and difficult challenges in life, even many in here. Give your kids and loved one an extra hug and enjoy your P cars.

Lol, screw getting them checked or even worrying about it unless buying it or selling it. Just drive the dang things until they die and then worry about if and when it ever happens which it probably won’t. This replacing engines in cars running perfectly fine with no symptoms makes absolutely no sense.

 

I have experienced the exact opposite over the last 35 years that I have been super involved in Porsche club, club racing and ownership get together/functions.

The guys I have had pleasure to race and hang out with have generally been super nice, easy going, great dudes. This even goes for guys at dealerships and independents working on my cars. Candidly, I would not want someone touching my car that was full of negative emotions about Porsches or Porsche owners.

Go hang out at the track with Porsche club guys or at DEs. I honestly have not had anything but super positive experiences at the track or at Porsche socials.

i also cannot recall any negative experiences buying or selling Porsches. Seemed like most I have dealt with were nice and everything was smooth. Lol, at least nothing stands out.

 

The independents and dealer guys I know love the brand and hang out at meets, DEs, some race and some do auto cross. They all seem to have a very positive attitude and it is a laid back fun time at these events. Literally, two of these guys build race engines and race cars and they experience more headaches than anyone, yet they are positive, patient and fun to be around.

Except out of necessity, why would anyone want do business with anyone that despises the brand and/or negatively stereotypes all owners of that brand.

You guys need to get off the forums and go to some of these events. Hit some DEs, does some Porsche club socials or go to some club races. Get to know these guys. It will drain your wallet, but it has been nothing but a positive experience for me for 30 plus years.

 

I've owned a Porsche every day of my life since the age of 12, and I bought that car with my own money- of course, it was a 914, the car despised by 911 owners until about 5 years ago.(funny how that happened)

My wife holds 5 Land Speed records- all set in a 911. This has been my life since 1991, not a job, not a business- a LIFE.

I have been attending Porsche events since 1993, including AX, DE and you name it. Until about 2 years ago you would not have found another hardcore Porsche lover than me, and if these forums and entitled opinions didn't exist, things would likely still be that way.

The other driving factor is being put under a microscope of perfection by those in attendance of events. When I go to the track I am not allowed to have any problems, even if the car I am driving has an experimental engine fitted that is built out of used parts, just to gather data, and probably to explode on purpose. If there's one puff of smoke, one smell, or etc I'd have someone come over and say something about it, and I'd get so mad that I'd see stars!
I'd come off the track and hear smart *** comments. None of that used to happen, and yes, it sucks to experience. Today we have to rent track time if we need to test, but at least there's no smart *** remarks, and no grading being done.

When perfection is expected, life becomes a living hell.

 

Porsche enthusiasts are, for the most part, motor heads. Ferrari owners... well that is a whole 'nuther planet. I used to love to go drive my Boxster at Ferrari events... great food.... and a ton of track time... they all started to leave after lunch on day 1. In the many Ferrari track weekends I attended, never once did anyone ask me a thing about my car... nothing. Not even "nice color".

But really, enthusiasts make the brand, posers make the money. Porsche owners, on the whole, fall into these two categories... one group is fun.

Telling thing to do is look at the club magazines...... Panarama and Ferrari..... pretty funny. Guess which mag is loaded with go-fast parts and which with Patek Philippe watch ads.

Peace
Bruce in Philly

 

I know you have some great tracks down in Georgia, but if you ever want to come a bit further up the road, I have a great relationship with a track in NC that several OEMs and race teams are using. Would be fun.

Cw

 

My take of this whole bore scoring issue is that the majority of the owners experiencing this problem has not been driving their car as it was designed to. My 997.2 has always been well maintained, but I never ever baby it. Once it is warmed up to about 200 degrees, I keep it in the high rpm range. That is where the fun starts and the engine performance is at the sweet spot. Cars need to be driven and as long as it is used within the parameter that it is designed for, it should be a very enjoyable and reliable car to own. People that keep their 996/997 cars with miniscule mileage for a few years and hibernates 1/2 the time in a year living as garage queens are more prone to these problems.

 

With all due respect, if you understand what Jake and Baz are saying their research has indicated, the use of the car seems to be irrelevant, milage or time be damned.

Cw