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My heart goes out to everyone who suffers a catastrophic failure, especially when they are a first time Porsche owner living out a child hood a dream only to have it turn into a nightmare with a paper weighted car. Why else would I say anything????? I have no other possible agenda..
Once again, I did not infuse 997.1 intro this conversation. I just responded to what I viewed as misleading or incorrect information some of which you had a hand in starting.
I guess two things:
1.) your initial post where you brought early 911s into the conversation was post 220, what misinformation were you responding to that required you bring the early 911 into this?
2.) You continually assert that 1st time owners are stretching themselves to live out a childhood dream, to me this assumption is condescending and seems elitist on your part. If it were something you said one time in one thread I could let it pass, but you make this statement as frequently as you attempt to bring all of your other Italian cars into discussions, which makes me think you just enjoy stroking yourself off.
Thanks guys for a strong discussion going on hopefully people shopping for these cars in the future can somehow benefit from this as we keep digging deeper and find out exactly what happened. So to steer back on topic a little bit, heres the oil analysis of the oil that i drained after the knock occurred (that fedex was finally able to deliver to Blackstone after losing it for few weeks)
Aluminum and silicon are up. Zinc is lower than before on less miles even though Motul has higher zinc content than previously used Castrol Edge on the 2 oil changes. So the engine was using up zinc to compensate for the internal damage that was already there.
Cylinder scoring for sure. The increase in aluminum along with silicon says everything.
Thanks guys for a strong discussion going on hopefully people shopping for these cars in the future can somehow benefit from this as we keep digging deeper and find out exactly what happened. So to steer back on topic a little bit, heres the oil analysis of the oil that i drained after the knock occurred (that fedex was finally able to deliver to Blackstone after losing it for few weeks)
Aluminum and silicon are up. Zinc is lower than before on less miles even though Motul has higher zinc content than previously used Castrol Edge on the 2 oil changes. So the engine was using up zinc to compensate for the internal damage that was already there.
The other thing I find interesting in this report is the low flashpoint of the oil along with the trace amounts of fuel in the last 2 samples. This almost looks like you had a cylinder washing issue where unburned fuel is diluting the oil and may be washing it from the cylinder walls. As we know, fuel is not a good lubricant and that may have been a contributor to the scoring. I'd be curious to know if other .2 owners who do UOA with Blackstone see similar flashpoint #s and trace amounts of fuel. That may tell us something. Bronz, just curious - do you idle or warm up the car while it is stationary before driving off, or are you a start it up, give it a few seconds and drive away guy? With the colder weather now, people may be warming up their cars creating a fuel wash issue.
For comparison, my 997 UOAs show a much higher flashpoint - usually around 400 if not higher, but mine are .1 cars where fuel is not being directly injected into the cylinder, which is why I'm curious about the UOA reports from other .2 owners with regard to flashpoint and traces of fuel in the oil.
When i start the car, i idle it for about a minute until the RPMs drop and then drive off. I always let the oil warm up to operating temperature before going above 3500rpms. Theres a big possibility that previous owners were doing a lot of short runs or a lot of idling. I bought the car with 66k miles after all.
The other thing I find interesting in this report is the low flashpoint of the oil along with the trace amounts of fuel in the last 2 samples. This almost looks like you had a cylinder washing issue where unburned fuel is diluting the oil and may be washing it from the cylinder walls. As we know, fuel is not a good lubricant and that may have been a contributor to the scoring. I'd be curious to know if other .2 owners who do UOA with Blackstone see similar flashpoint #s and trace amounts of fuel. That may tell us something. Bronz, just curious - do you idle or warm up the car while it is stationary before driving off, or are you a start it up, give it a few seconds and drive away guy? With the colder weather now, people may be warming up their cars creating a fuel wash issue.
For comparison, my 997 UOAs show a much higher flashpoint - usually around 400 if not higher, but mine are .1 cars where fuel is not being directly injected into the cylinder, which is why I'm curious about the UOA reports from other .2 owners with regard to flashpoint and traces of fuel in the oil.
Supercharged 997
Wife's C2S
I have seen many .2 UOAs with Flashpoints in the 380s. Which oil do you use (in both cars)?
I believe I mentioned a similar observation really early in the thread regarding possible fuel dilution due to an injector issue and was told the low flash was not a concern. To me fuel dilution seems to be somewhat of an issue in DFI cars, not just the 997.2. It seems to be made worse in colder temperatures, which coincidentally is when bore scoring seems to be worse.
When i start the car, i idle it for about a minute until the RPMs drop and then drive off. I always let the oil warm up to operating temperature before going above 3500rpms. Theres a big possibility that previous owners were doing a lot of short runs or a lot of idling. I bought the car with 66k miles after all.
I do not wait more than 5 seconds before driving off because I want oil to be splashing around as soon as possible on a cold start. If I wait, I can hear knocking...
Check out this article regarding cold start and lack of lubrication: https://www.996revolution.com/m96-engines.html
Unfortunately, based on all the FSI Jake Raby posts I have read going back to 2010 and earlier, is that Jake raised some red flags early on and tried to be open and honest with the 997.2 community by reporting some failures he and others were seeing in the 9A1 engine design back in 2010. Just like he was very vocal and one of the first to report and come up with solutions for the M96/M97 design. For the M96/M97 crowd it was a hard pill to swallow, but we accepted it and wanted solutions to move forward. Unfortunately the 997.2 / 9A1 owners at that time gave such a backlash to Jake for even suggesting these motors had issues. They didn't want to hear it or accept it, to the point of just arguing, ridiculing, and questioning all of Jake's work and research on the forums.
So it is my opinion that due to the backlash Jake and FSI got back in 2010 that they decided to not share and "vowed not to discuss the issues we have found with the 9a1 publicly." "People no longer appreciate the truth and reality. It’s all unicorns and rainbows."
Any further discoveries or information were closed off and the 9A1 crowd has been left with their "rainbows and unicorns" while Jake has been quietly discovering and fixing 9A1 issues for many customers in the background. I see that Jake spends most of his time in other forums, mostly 996/997.1, where owner's are eager and hungry to learn about their cars engines and issues no matter how hard it is to hear. It also makes sense since FSI gets a lot of bread and butter from that engine 996/997.1 group. It's unfortunate the discoveries and work Jake did with the 9A1 early on was not praised back then. A lot of information about the 9A1 issues/fixes has been withheld from the public because of it. Porsche sure as heck won't share that information with us for fear of more lawsuits. They just cart the engines away never to be seen again. The information, wisdom and knowledge FSI has accumulated is important to those who have the misfortune of an engine failure and even to those of us who are long term owners who just want to know what could possibly be avoided or done to make our engines last longer. These are some of the first guys we should be calling if something like this happens. As an M97 engine owner I am grateful to know they are there just in case.
10 years of variables in weather climate, geographic locations, maintenance, driving habits, racing or cruising ownership, DD or garage queens, etc..etc... will all take their toll. 10 years for the first 9A1 engines and as time and miles keep piling on I think we are going to see some issues creep up. It is inevitable. Yes, it will be in smaller numbers than the M96/M97, but it is only beneficial to be open to hearing about the possible issues and how to avoid or fix them in the future.
This post nailed it. This is exactly what has been occurring, and exactly why we’ve kept things under our roof.
l have the engine disassembled down to the long block now, l plan to stay on it the next 2 days and get it all disassembled, and measured up.
Here it is in my Morgue as of this morning at 0900... Stripped of it’s outerwear, its time to be gutted. I have been shooting video along the way, once its all said and done we will edit it into a Rennvision youtube video.
I believe I mentioned a similar observation really early in the thread regarding possible fuel dilution due to an injector issue and was told the low flash was not a concern. To me fuel dilution seems to be somewhat of an issue in DFI cars, not just the 997.2. It seems to be made worse in colder temperatures, which coincidentally is when bore scoring seems to be worse.
Fuel dilution is a huge problem with all direct injected engines, not just the 9A1. If you plan on keeping it, shorter drain intervals are a must.
Joe Gibbs Racing Driven DT40, per Jake's recommendation. The first couple on my wife's car were Motul 8100 xcess 5W/40
Driven has since come out with a line of oils for direct injected cars. DI40 would be the best bet and is formulated at the high end of the 40wt standard to help combat fuel dilution.
02-04-2019, 11:04 AM
