This forum is scaring me away from a 997.1
03-06-2018, 10:14 PM
#46
Three Wheelin'
@GPGolden, welcome! The fact you are on the forum doing your pre-purchase research significantly increases the odds you are going to have a great ownership experience no matter what car you choose. Most of the horror stories you read start out with "I know I should have done my research and got a PPI but ...".
I went through the same trough of despair when I first started researching 997.1s. But I kept on researching and talking to as many mechanics as I could to get an informed opinion. My conclusion: the 2006-2008 997.1 is the best value sports car on the planet. Is the 997.2 a better car? Yes it is. Does it justify a $15-20k premium over an equivalent mile 997.1? In my opinion, no way.
We had a similar 997.1 vs 997.2 debate a couple months back and here was my view on the subject:
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...l#post14643692
And here is a post I shared on my first year costs:
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...e-numbers.html
I went through the same trough of despair when I first started researching 997.1s. But I kept on researching and talking to as many mechanics as I could to get an informed opinion. My conclusion: the 2006-2008 997.1 is the best value sports car on the planet. Is the 997.2 a better car? Yes it is. Does it justify a $15-20k premium over an equivalent mile 997.1? In my opinion, no way.
We had a similar 997.1 vs 997.2 debate a couple months back and here was my view on the subject:
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...l#post14643692
You can get a pristine 997.1 for $35-43k with <45k miles, the equivalent of a well equiped 2017 Ford Taurus. Its likely the best value sports car on the planet. A similar spec 997.2 will run you $20k more and take you twice as long to find. Is it a better car? Yes. Is it worth $20k more? It depends on what you're looking for.
According to the Porsche class action suit the probability of an IMS issue on a 2006-2008 997.1 is something like 0.5%. Its extremely rare. There is no true statistical data on the bore scoring issue that I know of. Its real but its not a 15% probability as the poll concludes. Its a garbage poll with a massive sample bias. There are 32 owners who reported it on this forum...32. There were over 100,000 997.1's produced between 2005 and 2008. Its the most commercially successful 911 of all time. If this stat was remotely correct our friend Jake Raby would have made over $300M and sent every one of us a Christmas ham. I didnt get mine.
Jake and Baz from Hartech have some great posts on the topic. The issue is related to the Lokasil 2 piston coating and highly correlated to cold climate cars. Stay away from those and your probability goes down dramatically.
Every model has an issue people dramatize: “all 993s need a top end rebuild”, “all 996s will suffer an IMS failure”, “all 997.1s have scored bores”, etc. We can play the same game with the 997.2. The forum polls show 6 with PDK failures and 2 with scored bores. Thats 8 catastrophic failures vs 32 in the 997.1 However, there are twice as as many 997.1s and they have 5 years more data. I could easily make some dramatic statement about plunging values and impending doom as time goes on.
Earlier I said I think the 997.1 is the best value sports car on the planet. Here's why:
1. Say you're the unlucky one, you did your homework, got a proper PPI, and maintained the car well. Your probability of having a catastrophic engine issue at <100k miles is maybe 2-3%? Bad **** happens to good people. Your options at this point are:
All outcomes you win, except of course if you buy the Taurus.
According to the Porsche class action suit the probability of an IMS issue on a 2006-2008 997.1 is something like 0.5%. Its extremely rare. There is no true statistical data on the bore scoring issue that I know of. Its real but its not a 15% probability as the poll concludes. Its a garbage poll with a massive sample bias. There are 32 owners who reported it on this forum...32. There were over 100,000 997.1's produced between 2005 and 2008. Its the most commercially successful 911 of all time. If this stat was remotely correct our friend Jake Raby would have made over $300M and sent every one of us a Christmas ham. I didnt get mine.
Jake and Baz from Hartech have some great posts on the topic. The issue is related to the Lokasil 2 piston coating and highly correlated to cold climate cars. Stay away from those and your probability goes down dramatically.
Every model has an issue people dramatize: “all 993s need a top end rebuild”, “all 996s will suffer an IMS failure”, “all 997.1s have scored bores”, etc. We can play the same game with the 997.2. The forum polls show 6 with PDK failures and 2 with scored bores. Thats 8 catastrophic failures vs 32 in the 997.1 However, there are twice as as many 997.1s and they have 5 years more data. I could easily make some dramatic statement about plunging values and impending doom as time goes on.
Earlier I said I think the 997.1 is the best value sports car on the planet. Here's why:
1. Say you're the unlucky one, you did your homework, got a proper PPI, and maintained the car well. Your probability of having a catastrophic engine issue at <100k miles is maybe 2-3%? Bad **** happens to good people. Your options at this point are:
- Option A - You sell it as a roller or part it out. Your net value is still more than the 3 year depreciated value of a Ford Taurus and you had a hell of a lot more fun while it lasted.
- Option B - You get a 4.0 or 4.2 rebuild for $20-25k. Your total cost is a couple thousand more than a 997.2 and you now have a beast of an engine you can enjoy for years to come and pass it to your kids.
- Option C - You rebuild it and sell it. A Raby 4.0 will likely fetch a healthy premium so your total cost of ownership, including the rebuild, is likely a couple thousand less than a 997.2.
- Option D - You get Nickie sleeves. I believe those are 50% of a rebuild so your total cost is $5-10k less than a 997.2.
All outcomes you win, except of course if you buy the Taurus.
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...e-numbers.html
03-06-2018, 10:18 PM
#47
Advanced
One more opinion, albeit from a very new owner.
It took me a while to get to the point where I started to really appreciate the value and perks of a well documented higher mileage 997.1, an example that already had a many of the standard corrective maintenance items done along with the recommended services.
Your budget of $44k blows right past what I described in the previous sentence.
edit: ships in the night, me and The Bruce..."what he said"
It took me a while to get to the point where I started to really appreciate the value and perks of a well documented higher mileage 997.1, an example that already had a many of the standard corrective maintenance items done along with the recommended services.
Your budget of $44k blows right past what I described in the previous sentence.
edit: ships in the night, me and The Bruce..."what he said"
03-07-2018, 10:13 AM
#48
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I have 2 997.1 C2S cars. Both have the larger bearing, visually verified during each PPI after pulling the trans. My wife's car is her DD and we've put 50,000 mikes on it since Feb 2013. Mine much less as its a more special RUF car that I plan to keep forever. It does get driven regularly, not on short trips and has done some longer multi-hour trips as well, but only about 15,000 miles since Feb 2012.
Neither car has had a major mechanical failure and both get regular maintenance. They've been great and don't worry about any 997.1 - if it a small bearing car, change it. If it's a large bearing car, maintain it. Buy one from a warm climate with good maintenance records and enjoy it.
Neither car has had a major mechanical failure and both get regular maintenance. They've been great and don't worry about any 997.1 - if it a small bearing car, change it. If it's a large bearing car, maintain it. Buy one from a warm climate with good maintenance records and enjoy it.
03-07-2018, 10:50 AM
#49
Forums are full of horror stories. Bad things happen to every platform, but people are way more eager to share their bad stories than their good stories. With that said, just do your homework and make a decision that you are comfortable with. For me, the 997.1 was a comfortable decision and it has been a great car for me. Could it be a bad car starting tomorrow? Possibly, but who really knows what the future holds.
It is also worth mentioning that it is not just this forum. For example, the E46 M3 forums would make you never want to own one from all of the horror stories, but you'd be missing out on a great car there as well
It is also worth mentioning that it is not just this forum. For example, the E46 M3 forums would make you never want to own one from all of the horror stories, but you'd be missing out on a great car there as well
03-07-2018, 11:20 AM
#51
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I feel like this post was intended to outline the purchase of my 997.1! After reading through this post I would have to mostly agree with Voodoo (smile factor), doing your research and doing a PPI can be crucial to your state of mind, but at the of the day it is not a sure thing. I purchased my 05' from a local Porsche dealer (two owner, every service record, 19k miles) and after reading this post I'm sure most forum members would consider my car the epitome of what not to buy:
- Low mileage
- 04' build date
- Not CPO
- 2nd engine
Although I did do my fair share of research, the moment I got behind the wheel I was sold. It also helped that the price was right (under 36k, winter sales slump) and engine had already been replaced due an IMS failure many years ago.
Just read through any car forum for any manufacture/brand and you will see the "deal breaker" issues outlined (except Land Cruisers, and w126 mercs
).
- Low mileage
- 04' build date
- Not CPO
- 2nd engine
Although I did do my fair share of research, the moment I got behind the wheel I was sold. It also helped that the price was right (under 36k, winter sales slump) and engine had already been replaced due an IMS failure many years ago.
Just read through any car forum for any manufacture/brand and you will see the "deal breaker" issues outlined (except Land Cruisers, and w126 mercs
).
03-07-2018, 01:25 PM
#53
^^^^^agreed. if it's a worrisome concern now then I'd just avoid the potential.
if I were going to get a 997.1 I'd be looking to do it in the 30s and not the 40s. Nothing wrong with a 997.1 As has been said, know the risks. Starting out at a lower price point should allow you to hold some back for emergencies..
of course if you're spending 44k I dont see why you wouldnt just grab something like this instead
https://www.montgomeryvillenissan.co...AB2A93AS720695
if I were going to get a 997.1 I'd be looking to do it in the 30s and not the 40s. Nothing wrong with a 997.1 As has been said, know the risks. Starting out at a lower price point should allow you to hold some back for emergencies..
of course if you're spending 44k I dont see why you wouldnt just grab something like this instead
https://www.montgomeryvillenissan.co...AB2A93AS720695
03-07-2018, 09:59 PM
#55
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I'm suffering from the same thing.
I love my 997.1 cab, and enjoy driving it but I am worried about engine failure. I have been so worried that I'm looking at a 997.2. It saddens me that I can't simply enjoy it. If I ever come across a new Porsche owner, I will not suggest they browse any Porsche forums.
03-07-2018, 10:52 PM
#56
Rennlist Member
Having been a long time Porsche owner and just purchased 2005 997S, I can tell you they are great cars and the failure rate is extremely low.
Hard to use any sort of forum as a real basis for true % of failure rate because cars with issues tend to attract those owners to forums
Huge percentage of 997.1 owners with trouble free cars just like the 996.
Best to find well maintained Porsche with service records, perform a PPI at recommended shop.
**Due diligence a must - don't fall for scam cars on CL or similar with unrealistic low asking prices with sellers that won't give you a phone number or copy of title.
Hard to use any sort of forum as a real basis for true % of failure rate because cars with issues tend to attract those owners to forums
Huge percentage of 997.1 owners with trouble free cars just like the 996.
Best to find well maintained Porsche with service records, perform a PPI at recommended shop.
**Due diligence a must - don't fall for scam cars on CL or similar with unrealistic low asking prices with sellers that won't give you a phone number or copy of title.
03-09-2018, 08:19 AM
#58
Rennlist Member
Just get in it and drive it like you stole it - the way the good Dr P intended these machines to be used
03-09-2018, 08:56 AM
#59
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You have a point, but...
03-09-2018, 09:20 AM
#60
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The threat of a costly rebuild or paper weighted 997.1 is much greater than the likelihood of nuclear war and economic collapse. That said, I am moving more and more into cash and assets like property at the present . . ., but I have control over how I invest my money be it cars or investments. No substitute for being informed. I have owned 25+ 911s and some of the very rare varieties along the way. I have the financially ability to absorb a $25k rebuild, but won't touch a NA 997.1 due to long term scoring concerns. Not worth it and one could spend a few extra $$$s to get a 9A1 which is also a better car with the same body.