Benjamin Cherry

This is essentially a two part post.

First, I wanted to ask the community what you think about the effect of the (gradually, perhaps) broadening awareness of the 997 bore scoring issue. For some, it will never be a problem. For those of us in the pre-owned market, it seems there is no way to know which engines will be affected by this (especially the 3.8L / S engines), and when buying used a healthy assumption is probably "they'll all be affected."

Is this going to have a chilling effect on prices? To be more concrete, do you think that over the next few years as more 05-08 997s are reported to have this issue, buyers - believing they may potentially be on the hook for a new block within several thousand miles - will shy from this car and prices will drop accordingly to reflect the decreased demand?

I ask in part because I'm thinking I may need to figure this cost into the purchase of any 997.1, especially the larger engine models, and that takes me to:

Second, as mentioned by some in the bore scoring poll thread, what kind of options are out there for folks who end up having to do a rebuild? Something amazing, like a turbo or some sort of sick 4.0? Are there other features of the early 997s that make this worthwhile, or even desirable?

I don't care for the look of the 996, and at this point I don't trust the 997.1s; the .2s are a bit more than I'm looking to spend at the moment. Thoughts appreciated!

jeebus31

I had similar thoughts and bought a 997.1. The price was too good to pass up to get into my first Porsche, and I got a platinum Fidelity extended warranty which will cover any issues. For me, it's a nice balance of being able to do my own work on the car, which I truly enjoy and have already done a bit of, and peace of mind that the warranty will be there if things go to sh*t. I don't think you should worry much about the residual value. These are $100k cars that are well past the steepest part of the depreciation curve. Any further decreases in prices over the years will be comparatively nominal. If you are factoring the price of a rebuild into your purchase, save yourself the trouble and put that money toward a 997.2.

cosm3os

There are several flawed premises to your inquiry. First, you shouldn't be buying this car if you are worried about resale value. Second, you assume bore scoring is a problem on the level of the 996 IMS. You have two choices: don't buy OR buy, drive the shiznit out of it, and stay off the internet. If the driving experience doesn't make you forget the resale value and the fear of mechanical failure, this is the wrong car for you.

SoCal C2S

In a couple of years I’ll send my 911 to FSI for a 4.1 rebuild and be done with it. I have zero issues, no oil burn and track about 3-4 times a year. Did this since new. The only reason I would spend the $25k-$30K on the rebuild it that it’s cheaper than buying what I would consider as a worthy replacement.

minion

Well a PPI with a peek into the cylinder bores would clear that up pretty quick. There would be no case where you have a clean PPI and then all of the sudden have a catastrophic failure.

1) Find your car.
2) Get the service records.
3) Have it inspected as a PPI and for bore scoring.
4) Take it home, install a low temp thermostat and clean the leaves out of the radiators.
5) Warm up the car properly before every drive.
6) Enjoy.
7) maybe for Northern cars a block heater would be a good idea??

Racetwin2

Agree - PPI with a bore score inspection is the only way.

I am an engineering geek and I have read the article from Hartech several times. To me they give a very plausible cause and effect explanation to bore scoring. Also some good advice how to prevent it:

More or less it’s common sense: warm up the engine (oil, not only water temp), change oil often, before first full throttle acceleration - work up the temp gradually so thermostat has time to open, don’t lug the engine on low rpms with full throttle. And as a last precautionary action - change the thermostat to a colder one.

Many of our cars that was bought used have probably lived their lives with reckless drivers teenage sons etc driving these cars to the max without warming up engine. Impossible to know. Therefore a bore score inspection is worth the money IMO.

Ben Z

Bore scoring starts indolently and progresses. A borescoping through the spark plug holes shows the cylinder walls above the piston at its lowest point of travel (end of power or intake stroke). On mine that revealed nothing out of the ordinary, yet it was ticking like a grandfather clock and when it was torn down there was obvious damage on piston skirts. If it had progressed to scoring the bottom of the cylinders, a borescoping from underneath with the oil pan dropped might have shown it, but not piston skirt scoring, which is the earliest stage. Then again given the cure for it is the same regardless of what stage its in, it's a matter of owner preference if you want to rebuild it now or drive it till it's burning a ton of oil. I'll also add that my car has never been north of Sarasota FL, always driven below 3K rpm till the oil temp came to operating range, and the oil was changed at 3K/6mo intervals.

Benjamin Cherry

From what I've read, this is the most realistic assessment of the problem. A PPI with a "clean" bore scope is not peace of mind -- this could be a false negative, and even if there is truly no evidence of scoring, a problem could arise down the road.

The respondent who inferred that I was concerned about resale value is mistaken -- I'm wondering if I can get a much better deal on one of these cars (maybe a second one? ) in a few years.

Perhaps the best policy is actually to buy an airtight third party warranty, as jeebus31 mentioned. I read through the terms and exclusions of the Fidelity Platinum warranty that was mentioned and I'm not actually sure that it would cover this problem -- back to the drawing board, or the class action law suit?

pro1200

I've only been a Porsche owner since May 2016 when I bought a '07 Carrera S with 29K. I had similar concerns about the engine's durability so I bought a 3 yr/36K Fidelity warranty (cost was about $3,700) but after a month I asked for a refund. I found that I drove the car very little and estimated that I would only put about 8K miles on it in 3 years. In retrospect, it was the right decision but just barely. I have a leaky rear main seal but the engine doesn't use oil and runs flawlessly. As far as future values go, it's anybody's guess. I would love to trade for a 997.2 just for the PDK but there just aren't many to pick from.

Doug H

I am curious, what problem do you think the Fidelity warranty will not cover and why? You use the word respondent so curious if you are a lawyer? I am, but to ADD and too busy to read the warranty closely. We got a power train Fidelity primarily out of concern for the pdk for wife's 997.2. I would gladly self insure a 997.2 manual. The only other issue is the high pressure fuel pump,(+/- $1.5k) but I get stuff like that covered by goodwill.

Benjamin Cherry

Nah, I'm a physician -- please excuse my casual use of lawyerly words

I'll take another look at the Fidelity warranty later when I'm back in full-on car research mode. The limitation of my ability to interpret the terms and exclusions is really my knowledge of engine components, which is probably not on par with most here.

Any takers on the question of what one might choose to do with a rebuild? Apologies if I missed this in another thread, will keep looking around.

jeebus31

Also curious why you think the warranty would not cover bore scoring? There are multiple reports of Fidelity platinum covering engine rebuilds/replacements. When it comes to after market service contracts, Fidelity and Easy Care are highly rated. I considered one of the lower levels of the service contract, but wanted to make sure there were no issues if/when problems with the car arise.

TheBruce

I would second this. Here is the way I look at it:

You can get a pristine 997.1 for $35-43k with <45k miles, the equivalent of a well equiped 2017 Ford Taurus. Its likely the best value sports car on the planet. A similar spec 997.2 will run you $20k more and take you twice as long to find. Is it a better car? Yes. Is it worth $20k more? It depends on what you're looking for.

According to the Porsche class action suit the probability of an IMS issue on a 2006-2008 997.1 is something like 0.5%. Its extremely rare. There is no true statistical data on the bore scoring issue that I know of. Its real but its not a 15% probability as the poll concludes. Its a garbage poll with a massive sample bias. There are 32 owners who reported it on this forum...32. There were over 100,000 997.1's produced between 2005 and 2008. Its the most commercially successful 911 of all time. If this stat was remotely correct our friend Jake Raby would have made over $300M and sent every one of us a Christmas ham. I didnt get mine.

Jake and Baz from Hartech have some great posts on the topic. The issue is related to the Lokasil 2 piston coating and highly correlated to cold climate cars. Stay away from those and your probability goes down dramatically.

Every model has an issue people dramatize: “all 993s need a top end rebuild”, “all 996s will suffer an IMS failure”, “all 997.1s have scored bores”, etc. We can play the same game with the 997.2. The forum polls show 6 with PDK failures and 2 with scored bores. Thats 8 catastrophic failures vs 32 in the 997.1 However, there are twice as as many 997.1s and they have 5 years more data. I could easily make some dramatic statement about plunging values and impending doom as time goes on.

Earlier I said I think the 997.1 is the best value sports car on the planet. Here's why:

1. Say you're the unlucky one, you did your homework, got a proper PPI, and maintained the car well. Your probability of having a catastrophic engine issue at <100k miles is maybe 2-3%? Bad **** happens to good people. Your options at this point are:

• Option A - You sell it as a roller or part it out. Your net value is still more than the 3 year depreciated value of a Ford Taurus and you had a hell of a lot more fun while it lasted.
• Option B - You get a 4.0 or 4.2 rebuild for $20-25k. Your total cost is a couple thousand more than a 997.2 and you now have a beast of an engine you can enjoy for years to come and pass it to your kids.
• Option C - You rebuild it and sell it. A Raby 4.0 will likely fetch a healthy premium so your total cost of ownership, including the rebuild, is likely a couple thousand less than a 997.2.
• Option D - You get Nickie sleeves. I believe those are 50% of a rebuild so your total cost is $5-10k less than a 997.2.

2. Or you're the other 97% who will likely enjoy a relatively trouble free car for 150k+ miles and 15-20 years of use, minus standard wear and tear items (clutch, water pump, maybe RMS, etc). At that time you will need to rebuild it...the same as any other Porsche engine.

TheBruce

All outcomes you win, except of course if you buy the Taurus.

Riptide

Spot on there.........Thanks