Oil
07-04-2011, 01:03 AM
#106
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Ok - the amount of misinformation you are spreading is actually getting dangerous.
1 - Just picked up my jug of TDT. Says right on it - "For gasoline engines. Meets API SM, SL/SJ industry standards." So your first conjecture above is completely false.
2 - No, TDT is not "approved" for VW diesels. However, the majority of the folks I know w PD TDIs are now running it or its equivalent because the VW APPROVED 505.01 (in its 5W-30 form) has proven to be insufficient in protecting the flat tappets from wear. Countless UOA on Fred's TDI forum has supported this. So, here we have a non APPROVED oil actually working better than an APPROVED oil from the manufacturer. Go figure. And yes, I am also now running TDT in my PD TDI.
3 - Your attack on bluelugunas method for countering the tank the way he does was also false. He said he counters the torque on the tank by using two wrenches in one hand and squeezing. If you knew anything about physics, you would know not only is this a good way to counter, it is a perfect way to do so. Since he is using one hand, any force applied by his fingers on on wrench will be equal and opposite the force applied by the other wrench in his palm. Net torque on the tank will be exactly zero. So at the very least you owe him an apology.
4 - You have said elsewhere that Delvac 1 ESP is 10-20% "mineral oil." Right on the container it says "fully synthetic." So does TDT. I dont know where you are getting your information on this from, but given some of the doozies you've posted above I think I will trust Mobil's claims over yours.
Seriously, people come here for good advice on how to take care of their cars. That the misinformation you are posting makes you look foolish I do not care about. That someone else could base their decisons on this rubbish I do care about.
07-04-2011, 08:11 AM
#109
I'd tread lightly here... Macster and Dock are the golden children of this sub-forum, no matter how much disinformation they spread... All the admins care about is "spreading" good cheer and "fellow-ship". They don't give a spit about IF the information is correct, only that you don't insult or attack their two darlings...
Matter of fact, I'm following suit with Dell... They're on my ignore list... I simply can't take the stupidity anymore... I deal with it enough during the work week. I certainly don't come here to tiptoe around idiots spreading mis-information about topics they have zero first hand knowledge of, and admins/mods who can't discern the damage those individuals cause by giving such disinformation as "fact"... IGNORE LIST!!!
Mike
Matter of fact, I'm following suit with Dell... They're on my ignore list... I simply can't take the stupidity anymore... I deal with it enough during the work week. I certainly don't come here to tiptoe around idiots spreading mis-information about topics they have zero first hand knowledge of, and admins/mods who can't discern the damage those individuals cause by giving such disinformation as "fact"... IGNORE LIST!!!
Mike
Ok - the amount of misinformation you are spreading is actually getting dangerous.
1 - Just picked up my jug of TDT. Says right on it - "For gasoline engines. Meets API SM, SL/SJ industry standards." So your first conjecture above is completely false.
2 - No, TDT is not "approved" for VW diesels. However, the majority of the folks I know w PD TDIs are now running it or its equivalent because the VW APPROVED 505.01 (in its 5W-30 form) has proven to be insufficient in protecting the flat tappets from wear. Countless UOA on Fred's TDI forum has supported this. So, here we have a non APPROVED oil actually working better than an APPROVED oil from the manufacturer. Go figure. And yes, I am also now running TDT in my PD TDI.
3 - Your attack on bluelugunas method for countering the tank the way he does was also false. He said he counters the torque on the tank by using two wrenches in one hand and squeezing. If you knew anything about physics, you would know not only is this a good way to counter, it is a perfect way to do so. Since he is using one hand, any force applied by his fingers on on wrench will be equal and opposite the force applied by the other wrench in his palm. Net torque on the tank will be exactly zero. So at the very least you owe him an apology.
4 - You have said elsewhere that Delvac 1 ESP is 10-20% "mineral oil." Right on the container it says "fully synthetic." So does TDT. I dont know where you are getting your information on this from, but given some of the doozies you've posted above I think I will trust Mobil's claims over yours.
Seriously, people come here for good advice on how to take care of their cars. That the misinformation you are posting makes you look foolish I do not care about. That someone else could base their decisons on this rubbish I do care about.
1 - Just picked up my jug of TDT. Says right on it - "For gasoline engines. Meets API SM, SL/SJ industry standards." So your first conjecture above is completely false.
2 - No, TDT is not "approved" for VW diesels. However, the majority of the folks I know w PD TDIs are now running it or its equivalent because the VW APPROVED 505.01 (in its 5W-30 form) has proven to be insufficient in protecting the flat tappets from wear. Countless UOA on Fred's TDI forum has supported this. So, here we have a non APPROVED oil actually working better than an APPROVED oil from the manufacturer. Go figure. And yes, I am also now running TDT in my PD TDI.
3 - Your attack on bluelugunas method for countering the tank the way he does was also false. He said he counters the torque on the tank by using two wrenches in one hand and squeezing. If you knew anything about physics, you would know not only is this a good way to counter, it is a perfect way to do so. Since he is using one hand, any force applied by his fingers on on wrench will be equal and opposite the force applied by the other wrench in his palm. Net torque on the tank will be exactly zero. So at the very least you owe him an apology.
4 - You have said elsewhere that Delvac 1 ESP is 10-20% "mineral oil." Right on the container it says "fully synthetic." So does TDT. I dont know where you are getting your information on this from, but given some of the doozies you've posted above I think I will trust Mobil's claims over yours.
Seriously, people come here for good advice on how to take care of their cars. That the misinformation you are posting makes you look foolish I do not care about. That someone else could base their decisons on this rubbish I do care about.
07-04-2011, 10:50 AM
#110
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Technical forums are not 100% correct regarding the information that is posted.
It is up to the individual to determine what is useful and what isn't, based on the comments of anonymous individuals.
Moderating an oil viscosity thread on technical grounds alone is virtually impossible IMHO.
Of course if it devolved into gratuitous personal attacks or goes completely OT, then the appropriate steps are taken.
As I mentioned, they all end up the same way, no matter what forum. Oil viscosity just seems to be one of those topics. Head and Neck and tow vehicles are 2 others that come to mind.
FWIW, I will take the data point provided by T2 , 0W-40 seems to allow one engine to get to 300,000 miles, which should take me .... 255 more years to get to.
P.S. As an active participant in a thread, I am forbidden from actively moderating the thread, but if anyone feels as though the use of the Report Post button is warranted, please feel free to do so.
It is up to the individual to determine what is useful and what isn't, based on the comments of anonymous individuals.
Moderating an oil viscosity thread on technical grounds alone is virtually impossible IMHO.
Of course if it devolved into gratuitous personal attacks or goes completely OT, then the appropriate steps are taken.
As I mentioned, they all end up the same way, no matter what forum. Oil viscosity just seems to be one of those topics. Head and Neck and tow vehicles are 2 others that come to mind.
FWIW, I will take the data point provided by T2 , 0W-40 seems to allow one engine to get to 300,000 miles, which should take me .... 255 more years to get to.
P.S. As an active participant in a thread, I am forbidden from actively moderating the thread, but if anyone feels as though the use of the Report Post button is warranted, please feel free to do so.
07-04-2011, 11:44 AM
#111
Nordschleife Master
Lewis, I use 0W-40 to lubricate the tethers on my HANS device. Is that the appropriate weight? Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go tow my 30 ft enclosed trailer with my V6 Cayenne!!!!!!!!!! 
07-04-2011, 04:19 PM
#114
Burning Brakes
Technical forums are not 100% correct regarding the information that is posted.
It is up to the individual to determine what is useful and what isn't, based on the comments of anonymous individuals.
Moderating an oil viscosity thread on technical grounds alone is virtually impossible IMHO.
Of course if it devolved into gratuitous personal attacks or goes completely OT, then the appropriate steps are taken.
As I mentioned, they all end up the same way, no matter what forum. Oil viscosity just seems to be one of those topics. Head and Neck and tow vehicles are 2 others that come to mind.
FWIW, I will take the data point provided by T2 , 0W-40 seems to allow one engine to get to 300,000 miles, which should take me .... 255 more years to get to.
P.S. As an active participant in a thread, I am forbidden from actively moderating the thread, but if anyone feels as though the use of the Report Post button is warranted, please feel free to do so.
It is up to the individual to determine what is useful and what isn't, based on the comments of anonymous individuals.
Moderating an oil viscosity thread on technical grounds alone is virtually impossible IMHO.
Of course if it devolved into gratuitous personal attacks or goes completely OT, then the appropriate steps are taken.
As I mentioned, they all end up the same way, no matter what forum. Oil viscosity just seems to be one of those topics. Head and Neck and tow vehicles are 2 others that come to mind.
FWIW, I will take the data point provided by T2 , 0W-40 seems to allow one engine to get to 300,000 miles, which should take me .... 255 more years to get to.
P.S. As an active participant in a thread, I am forbidden from actively moderating the thread, but if anyone feels as though the use of the Report Post button is warranted, please feel free to do so.
07-04-2011, 05:26 PM
#115
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What we do know is that a 0W-40 motor went 300K miles.
What we don't know is why the motors you referenced failed?
Was it assembly error?
Was it parts tolerances in manufacture and assembly?
Would a different oil have made a difference innthese engines w.r.t. longevity?
We simply do not know.
Again, I will stick with the known data point with respect to longevity. Data always trumps theory, speculation and hypothesis.
It does not say that other approved oils could not make it to 300k, we simply don't have that data.
And if a motor went to 300k on 5W-50, what would it prove with respect to another oil that hasn't reached 300k in a motor?
Again, data rules.
What we don't know is why the motors you referenced failed?
Was it assembly error?
Was it parts tolerances in manufacture and assembly?
Would a different oil have made a difference innthese engines w.r.t. longevity?
We simply do not know.
Again, I will stick with the known data point with respect to longevity. Data always trumps theory, speculation and hypothesis.
It does not say that other approved oils could not make it to 300k, we simply don't have that data.
And if a motor went to 300k on 5W-50, what would it prove with respect to another oil that hasn't reached 300k in a motor?
Again, data rules.
07-04-2011, 05:33 PM
#116
Burning Brakes
What we do know is that a 0W-40 motor went 300K miles.
What we don't know is why the motors you referenced failed?
Was it assembly error?
Was it parts tolerances in manufacture and assembly?
Would a different oil have made a difference innthese engines w.r.t. longevity?
We simply do not know.
Again, I will stick with the known data point with respect to longevity. Data always trumps theory, speculation and hypothesis.
It does not say that other approved oils could not make it to 300k, we simply don't have that data.
And if a motor went to 300k on 5W-50, what would it prove with respect to another oil that hasn't reached 300k in a motor?
Again, data rules.
What we don't know is why the motors you referenced failed?
Was it assembly error?
Was it parts tolerances in manufacture and assembly?
Would a different oil have made a difference innthese engines w.r.t. longevity?
We simply do not know.
Again, I will stick with the known data point with respect to longevity. Data always trumps theory, speculation and hypothesis.
It does not say that other approved oils could not make it to 300k, we simply don't have that data.
And if a motor went to 300k on 5W-50, what would it prove with respect to another oil that hasn't reached 300k in a motor?
Again, data rules.
And again, at least half of the 300k miles were on a previous formulation of 0w40 that contained more zinc and phosphorous. So you comment of data rules is flawed- since the oil has NOT remained constant over the 300k miles, only the weight designation- not the ingredients.
I'm with Mike, I'm DONE.
07-04-2011, 06:28 PM
#117
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Lewis do you realize that the 0W40 and 5W50 (and any other retail automobile) oil has changed? It is NOT a constant. For the last 2.5 years one has to figure the MILES put on "any" car. The statisical "rug" has been pulled out and changed.
The thing that I can't figure out is >> people that are clinging to changing variables. The fact is regardless of miles the OIL HAS CHANGED. We are seeing greater engine failures on the NEW formulation. We did NOT see these failures on the old formulation.
The thing that I can't figure out is >> people that are clinging to changing variables. The fact is regardless of miles the OIL HAS CHANGED. We are seeing greater engine failures on the NEW formulation. We did NOT see these failures on the old formulation.
07-04-2011, 06:51 PM
#118
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OK,
So PROVE that the newer formulation oils are no good.
How exactly do you do that?
How do you correlate UOA to longevity?
Can someone show a curve of expected vs. actual life?
How do you prove that one oil (TDT for example) is clearly superior to M1 5-50 or 0-40?
How much worse is the new formulation 0-40 vs the old formulation (of which there were how many?)
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I am curious to hear the answers to the above questions.
So PROVE that the newer formulation oils are no good.
How exactly do you do that?
How do you correlate UOA to longevity?
Can someone show a curve of expected vs. actual life?
How do you prove that one oil (TDT for example) is clearly superior to M1 5-50 or 0-40?
How much worse is the new formulation 0-40 vs the old formulation (of which there were how many?)
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I am curious to hear the answers to the above questions.
07-05-2011, 12:17 PM
#120
Statistically speaking it is impossible to PROVE anything. You can achieve some conclusion for which the degree of belief is quite high, but that is it. As far as the comments on data I believe those are also a bit optimistic. It is not just data that is important, but the data source and the context under which the data were collected. In providing evidence of causal structure, the best data source is through manipulated sampling (experimental design), the least valuable (on the continuum) is anecdotal data (excluding no data at all). So if you want to get a high degree of belief in understanding what causes less wear, longer engine life, etc. you must be able to manipulate the variables in a multi-variable experiment and your measurement systems need to be precise and sensitive enough to provide insight. Analytical Statistics 101. Oh and BTW correlation does not imply causation.