Oil
06-30-2011, 02:57 PM
#91
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Sanyata, you will find that I have recommended folks to move up to the 5W50 away from the 0W40. The oil formulations between the two oils are the same. However, the formulations HAVE CHANGED in the last two years. I have gone on to state that IF someone has IMS noise or if the see some metal in ther oil filter to change to Mobil 5W40 TDT or Mobil Delvac 5W40. I have switched over my shop oil fills to Mobil 5W40 TDT for all customers including myself.
While I agree that T2's outstanding engine mileage is great, it is not the norm. I would also like to state that his wear most likely has increased with a tipping point after the formulation change. It would be nice to see a oil sample from his engine. That would be a benchmark for all of us..
While I agree that T2's outstanding engine mileage is great, it is not the norm. I would also like to state that his wear most likely has increased with a tipping point after the formulation change. It would be nice to see a oil sample from his engine. That would be a benchmark for all of us..
06-30-2011, 08:01 PM
#92
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Dell,
My point is that T2 does not belong in the group.
He has gone where very few have gone.
The vast majority of folks in these discussions try to extrapolate engine life vs oil type/brand/viscosity based on limited data (filter and oil analysis) and sample length/time. It is merely hypothesis, no matter how well intentioned.
That is the inherent beauty of RL oil viscosity discussions...no one is ever wrong.
Models are for kids, data is for men....unless you're a meteorologist.
My point is that T2 does not belong in the group.
He has gone where very few have gone.
The vast majority of folks in these discussions try to extrapolate engine life vs oil type/brand/viscosity based on limited data (filter and oil analysis) and sample length/time. It is merely hypothesis, no matter how well intentioned.
That is the inherent beauty of RL oil viscosity discussions...no one is ever wrong.
Models are for kids, data is for men....unless you're a meteorologist.
06-30-2011, 11:15 PM
#94
Jeff, the answer to your question is a question that you have to ask yourself>> With Mobil 1 0W40 and 5W50 they share the same NEW formulation that has changed to a additive package of "again" Moly, Boron, and calcium.. Do you trust that formulation Yes or No.. With the reported engine failures that our engine are having do you want to risk finding METAL in your oil filter??
Or do you find a oil formulation that was similar to the old Mobil 1 with high zinc and phosphorus? The oils that are exempt are RACE oil such as Motul 300V, Motorcycle oils like Mobil VTwin, and Heavy Duty Industrial Diesel oils such as Mobil TDT and Mobil Delvac. Selecting the correct weight is important..
So with this information, my recommendation is to use Mobil 5W40 TDT Mobil Delvac 5W40 and I do use Motul 300V in certain "test" engines..
While Doug wrote some great information> things have changed.. I would debate the mineral vs metal oil conditioners used in the Mobil products right now. The ratio of has flipped with the 0W40 and 5W50 since the reformulation.
Or do you find a oil formulation that was similar to the old Mobil 1 with high zinc and phosphorus? The oils that are exempt are RACE oil such as Motul 300V, Motorcycle oils like Mobil VTwin, and Heavy Duty Industrial Diesel oils such as Mobil TDT and Mobil Delvac. Selecting the correct weight is important..
So with this information, my recommendation is to use Mobil 5W40 TDT Mobil Delvac 5W40 and I do use Motul 300V in certain "test" engines..
While Doug wrote some great information> things have changed.. I would debate the mineral vs metal oil conditioners used in the Mobil products right now. The ratio of has flipped with the 0W40 and 5W50 since the reformulation.
Thank you very much, Kevin.. Oh well...lots of 5w-50 to use up. At least TDT is easy to find.
Anyone have a list of easy to get "great" options. Call M1 5w040 TDT the exemplar...Walmart/Autozone available stuff... ?
07-01-2011, 06:59 PM
#95
Two things...
I scratch my head and wonder why I still read this thread...
I wonder when Kevin will eventually **** off as many "non-technical" sheep who follow the flock and get as many warnings from the "admins/moderators" and come to his senses and stop posting useful technical information...
I'm done leading fools to the light...Just sayin'...
Mike
I scratch my head and wonder why I still read this thread...
I wonder when Kevin will eventually **** off as many "non-technical" sheep who follow the flock and get as many warnings from the "admins/moderators" and come to his senses and stop posting useful technical information...
I'm done leading fools to the light...Just sayin'...
Mike
07-01-2011, 08:10 PM
#96
Nordschleife Master
Mike, you can lead those fools to the light and provide all the empirical data possible yet they will always refuse to digest anything that does not conform to their dogma. To them, what PAG has released in the past is their 10 commandments written on stone and don't evolve.
07-02-2011, 09:28 AM
#97
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Hypothetical question.
Suppose Tom (T2), had a twin brother, who owned the twin car to his 03 X50.
T2 used 0W-40 and his twin used 5W-50.
Both achieved 300,000 miles.
What has been proven about each oil?
What has been proven about each engine?
You have 30 minutes....begin.
Suppose Tom (T2), had a twin brother, who owned the twin car to his 03 X50.
T2 used 0W-40 and his twin used 5W-50.
Both achieved 300,000 miles.
What has been proven about each oil?
What has been proven about each engine?
You have 30 minutes....begin.
07-02-2011, 10:46 AM
#98
Nordschleife Master
Assuming they start at the same point, if Turbo 1 departs due west for 3 and then due north for 4 miles while Turbo 2 departs due east for 3 miles and due south for 4 miles, assuming one used 0W-40 and the other 5W-50, how far apart will they be? You have 30 seconds.............
07-03-2011, 07:32 AM
#99
Cheeseburgers and Jackdaniels... On ice.
Mike
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07-03-2011, 06:32 PM
#100
Race Director
The idea is to apply *no* torque or twist to the tank to avoid fatiquing its attachment points and other fittings.
That you've gotten away with doing it wrong so many times is a testament to Porsche's overengineering and your luck.
Sincerely,
Macster.
That you've gotten away with doing it wrong so many times is a testament to Porsche's overengineering and your luck.
Sincerely,
Macster.
07-03-2011, 06:40 PM
#101
Race Director
Macster, do all your posts need to be lengthy Wikipages?
Do you choose to only believe what you want instead of listening to the experts on the engines? (just b/c the oil has the word diesel in the title does NOT mean it is not suitable for a gasoline engine)
Curious, what do you do for a living?
And what is your background in the engine that lead you to these conclusions?
Do you choose to only believe what you want instead of listening to the experts on the engines? (just b/c the oil has the word diesel in the title does NOT mean it is not suitable for a gasoline engine)
Curious, what do you do for a living?
And what is your background in the engine that lead you to these conclusions?
BTW, I do listen to Porsche engine experts, that is I read what they have to say. They say -- via the approved oils list what oils are approved for use in Porsche engines.
There is not one diesel oil approved for use in gasoline engines.
And at the risk of being accused of a too lengthy post I point out once again TDT oil is not even approved for Porsche (or VW) diesel engines.
My background is generally relying upon a company that designed and built a product, like a Porsche engine, to know what's best for it.
Sincerely,
Macster.
07-03-2011, 07:44 PM
#102
Race Director
"I use Delvac 1 5W-40 in my M96 but it was on M1 0W-40 since new and it now has 130kkms. It uses no oil at 17kkms OCIs
One Poster has suggested using Castrol Syntec 5W-50. This oil has NOT been Approved by Porsche since MY1999. The only Approved SAE50 lubricant is M1 5W-50 - for very sound reasons!
Stay with M1 0W-40 it is used by Porsche, Mercedes Benz and Aston Martin in their own cars for racing. Their Engineers love this lubricant!!! As an example, all of these Companies used it at the Nurburgring for the ADAC 24hr last May and Aston Martin's Test-Development Centre is based at Nurburg as you will already know[.]"
Apparently this poster has no qualms about using a non-approved diesel engine oil in his 996 but then goes on to stress to not use an oil that was while at one time an approved oil but no longer is and he stresses "for very sound reasons".
Apparently "for very sound reasons" Porsche removed Castrol Syntec 5w-50 oil (which IIRC but I'm not taking the time to go back through my approved oils lists was approved more recently than '99) from its approved oils list.
One can only wonder then for what reasons Porsche failed to overlook these diesel oils being touted as not only ok to use but even better than approved oils.
At least the poster which I quoted above while he admits to using a non-approved diesel oil in his car advises others to use an approved oil in their cars.
Sincerely,
Macster.
07-03-2011, 07:54 PM
#103
Race Director
Blue, I don't think Mac understands the way to force is applied. Your method sounds like it holds the tank constant while the bolt loosens. It's the same as using two independent wrenches like how I do it. You HAVE to apply the same force both directions until the nut moves and then start to release force on the tank. But then again, you'll never be able to teach Mac anything. He subscribes to his own dogma and doth profess it with such vigor without room for assimilating new (and better) information.
FYI.....5W-40 TDT
Directly from the Mobil 1 website:
"application for High-performance gasoline engines"
Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5W-40 meets or exceeds the requirements of the following industry and builder specifications:
API CJ-4, CI-4 PLUS/CI-4/CH-4/CG-4/ SM/SL/SJ ACEA E7
What I find absolutely comical is that he (and others) follow those oil lists blindly on faith yet consistently overlook the key sentence in the entire 12 page document:
"Older approval statuses must no longer be taken into consideration"
So what does that tell us? It tells us that science moves forward and the older documents should not be followed. For example, 15W-50 was in my owner's manual yet now it is NOT approved for my 2000 CAB. As a professor and researcher, I tell my students constantly that the best information is NOT in the books (or in Porsche circles approved lists) but rather it is in the lab and in publication to peer-reviewed journals (last time I check PAG doesn't solicit peer review
for approval lists). Those researchers in the lab we rely on for the best and most up to date info are guys like Kevin at UMW, Raby with Flat6, Navarro with LN, etc, etc, etc.. To ignore those experts is to accept ignorance.
FYI.....5W-40 TDT
Directly from the Mobil 1 website:
"application for High-performance gasoline engines"
Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5W-40 meets or exceeds the requirements of the following industry and builder specifications:
API CJ-4, CI-4 PLUS/CI-4/CH-4/CG-4/ SM/SL/SJ ACEA E7
What I find absolutely comical is that he (and others) follow those oil lists blindly on faith yet consistently overlook the key sentence in the entire 12 page document:
"Older approval statuses must no longer be taken into consideration"
So what does that tell us? It tells us that science moves forward and the older documents should not be followed. For example, 15W-50 was in my owner's manual yet now it is NOT approved for my 2000 CAB. As a professor and researcher, I tell my students constantly that the best information is NOT in the books (or in Porsche circles approved lists) but rather it is in the lab and in publication to peer-reviewed journals (last time I check PAG doesn't solicit peer review
for approval lists). Those researchers in the lab we rely on for the best and most up to date info are guys like Kevin at UMW, Raby with Flat6, Navarro with LN, etc, etc, etc.. To ignore those experts is to accept ignorance.This is not holding the tank from twisting. It is spreading the loosening or tightening torque between the drain plug and the tank. The instructions clearly indicate the tank wrench hex is to be used to prevent the tank from being subjected to any twist in loosening or tightening the tank drain plug.
Sincerely,
Macster.
07-03-2011, 09:15 PM
#104
Nordschleife Master
Mac, you failed to answer my DIRECT question what you do for a living and what your level of expertise is with respect to these engines.
As far as your take on oil......To try and make the leap that b/c PAG added an oil to the approved list makes it the only suitable (and best) for your car is absurdity. You really need to understand how those lists get complied. And further, you really needed to understand something called empirical evolution.
And don't try to make the comparison between our street cars and the race cars. The do NOT use the same oil we use and their motors are not even close to the same as ours so that line of comparison is moot.
I'm on to your game. You don't choose brevity in your replies b/c you don't have a knowledge base that would allow you to explain to the layperson. That ability is what separates the experts from the posers. Instead, you pull some sort of jedi mind trick through the use of your lengthy google searches which usually works on the uninformed.
Why myself (and others) continue to dialogue with you baffles my mind. With that said, it's time to do what only I can do to protect myself from trying to help you any further............
As far as your take on oil......To try and make the leap that b/c PAG added an oil to the approved list makes it the only suitable (and best) for your car is absurdity. You really need to understand how those lists get complied. And further, you really needed to understand something called empirical evolution.
And don't try to make the comparison between our street cars and the race cars. The do NOT use the same oil we use and their motors are not even close to the same as ours so that line of comparison is moot.
I'm on to your game. You don't choose brevity in your replies b/c you don't have a knowledge base that would allow you to explain to the layperson. That ability is what separates the experts from the posers. Instead, you pull some sort of jedi mind trick through the use of your lengthy google searches which usually works on the uninformed.
Why myself (and others) continue to dialogue with you baffles my mind. With that said, it's time to do what only I can do to protect myself from trying to help you any further............
07-04-2011, 12:22 AM
#105
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Mac, you failed to answer my DIRECT question what you do for a living and what your level of expertise is with respect to these engines.
As far as your take on oil......To try and make the leap that b/c PAG added an oil to the approved list makes it the only suitable (and best) for your car is absurdity. You really need to understand how those lists get complied. And further, you really needed to understand something called empirical evolution.
And don't try to make the comparison between our street cars and the race cars. The do NOT use the same oil we use and their motors are not even close to the same as ours so that line of comparison is moot.
I'm on to your game. You don't choose brevity in your replies b/c you don't have a knowledge base that would allow you to explain to the layperson. That ability is what separates the experts from the posers. Instead, you pull some sort of jedi mind trick through the use of your lengthy google searches which usually works on the uninformed.
Why myself (and others) continue to dialogue with you baffles my mind. With that said, it's time to do what only I can do to protect myself from trying to help you any further............
As far as your take on oil......To try and make the leap that b/c PAG added an oil to the approved list makes it the only suitable (and best) for your car is absurdity. You really need to understand how those lists get complied. And further, you really needed to understand something called empirical evolution.
And don't try to make the comparison between our street cars and the race cars. The do NOT use the same oil we use and their motors are not even close to the same as ours so that line of comparison is moot.
I'm on to your game. You don't choose brevity in your replies b/c you don't have a knowledge base that would allow you to explain to the layperson. That ability is what separates the experts from the posers. Instead, you pull some sort of jedi mind trick through the use of your lengthy google searches which usually works on the uninformed.
Why myself (and others) continue to dialogue with you baffles my mind. With that said, it's time to do what only I can do to protect myself from trying to help you any further............