Oil
06-29-2011, 04:03 PM
#61
Race Director
I suppose you're going to have to tell my car all that as my engine is now much quieter and consumption appears to be way down w the Delvac.
If you want to keep doing what authority is telling you in face of mounting evidence to the contrary, by all means go ahead. Afterall, its your IMS. Then again, anyone who cannot think for themselves probably shouldnt own a turbo.
If you want to keep doing what authority is telling you in face of mounting evidence to the contrary, by all means go ahead. Afterall, its your IMS. Then again, anyone who cannot think for themselves probably shouldnt own a turbo.
All I have are reports by some owners that 'apparently' oil usage is down and the engine is quiet after draining out the old oil and replacing it with fresh oil.
Gee, an engine quiets down after an oil change. This is normal. I have observed more than once -- after every oil change in fact -- the engine quieting down simply from the fresh oil being put in the engine and I run the oil only 5K miles in my Porsches.
Did you attempt to determine if your engine would quiet down with say an approved 5w-40 oil? or an approved 5w-50 oil? And if you want a quiet engine, did you try say that 10w-60 oil? Why did you stop at 5w-40 oil? If quietness is paramount I would think your leaving some decibels on the table by not running a 5w-50 or even a 10w-60 oil.
Sincerely,
Macster.
06-29-2011, 04:08 PM
#62
Burning Brakes
I have no evidence that any diesel oil is suitable for use in a Turbo engine.
All I have are reports by some owners that 'apparently' oil usage is down and the engine is quiet after draining out the old oil and replacing it with fresh oil.
Gee, an engine quiets down after an oil change. This is normal. I have observed more than once -- after every oil change in fact -- the engine quieting down simply from the fresh oil being put in the engine and I run the oil only 5K miles in my Porsches.
Did you attempt to determine if your engine would quiet down with say an approved 5w-40 oil? or an approved 5w-50 oil? And if you want a quiet engine, did you try say that 10w-60 oil? Why did you stop at 5w-40 oil? If quietness is paramount I would think your leaving some decibels on the table by not running a 5w-50 or even a 10w-60 oil.
Sincerely,
Macster.
All I have are reports by some owners that 'apparently' oil usage is down and the engine is quiet after draining out the old oil and replacing it with fresh oil.
Gee, an engine quiets down after an oil change. This is normal. I have observed more than once -- after every oil change in fact -- the engine quieting down simply from the fresh oil being put in the engine and I run the oil only 5K miles in my Porsches.
Did you attempt to determine if your engine would quiet down with say an approved 5w-40 oil? or an approved 5w-50 oil? And if you want a quiet engine, did you try say that 10w-60 oil? Why did you stop at 5w-40 oil? If quietness is paramount I would think your leaving some decibels on the table by not running a 5w-50 or even a 10w-60 oil.
Sincerely,
Macster.
My IMS noise was just as loud when I switched out my 7k mile 0w40 for M1 5w50- one of your beloved "approved" oils. And yes, even when the oil was fresh.
Also, directly from the Mobil site (also stated on the bottle of TDT or Delvac 1). Note the 4th item below-
Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5W-40 is recommended for use in all super high performance diesel applications, including modern low emission engine designs with Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR), Aftertreatment systems with Diesel Particulate Filters (DPF’s) and Diesel Oxidation Catalysts (DOC’s). These applications include the following:
On-highway engines operating in both high speed/high load and stop-and-go conditions
Off-highway engines operating in severe low speed/heavy load conditions
Virtually all diesel powered equipment from American and European equipment builders
High performance gasoline engines and mixed fleets
Refrigeration units
So, YOU may not have any evidence that Diesel oil is suitable for a gasoline motor, but the manufacturer of said oil does. Go back to the UOA I posted. Even Blackstone was not "shocked" that diesel oil performed well.
Plus you can use it in your refrigeration unit. I'm sold!
06-29-2011, 04:17 PM
#63
Nordschleife Master
Macster, do all your posts need to be lengthy Wikipages?
Do you choose to only believe what you want instead of listening to the experts on the engines? (just b/c the oil has the word diesel in the title does NOT mean it is not suitable for a gasoline engine)
Curious, what do you do for a living?
And what is your background in the engine that lead you to these conclusions?
Do you choose to only believe what you want instead of listening to the experts on the engines? (just b/c the oil has the word diesel in the title does NOT mean it is not suitable for a gasoline engine)
Curious, what do you do for a living?
And what is your background in the engine that lead you to these conclusions?
06-29-2011, 04:33 PM
#64
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I have no evidence that any diesel oil is suitable for use in a Turbo engine.
All I have are reports by some owners that 'apparently' oil usage is down and the engine is quiet after draining out the old oil and replacing it with fresh oil.
Gee, an engine quiets down after an oil change. This is normal. I have observed more than once -- after every oil change in fact -- the engine quieting down simply from the fresh oil being put in the engine and I run the oil only 5K miles in my Porsches.
Did you attempt to determine if your engine would quiet down with say an approved 5w-40 oil? or an approved 5w-50 oil? And if you want a quiet engine, did you try say that 10w-60 oil? Why did you stop at 5w-40 oil? If quietness is paramount I would think your leaving some decibels on the table by not running a 5w-50 or even a 10w-60 oil.
Sincerely,
Macster.
All I have are reports by some owners that 'apparently' oil usage is down and the engine is quiet after draining out the old oil and replacing it with fresh oil.
Gee, an engine quiets down after an oil change. This is normal. I have observed more than once -- after every oil change in fact -- the engine quieting down simply from the fresh oil being put in the engine and I run the oil only 5K miles in my Porsches.
Did you attempt to determine if your engine would quiet down with say an approved 5w-40 oil? or an approved 5w-50 oil? And if you want a quiet engine, did you try say that 10w-60 oil? Why did you stop at 5w-40 oil? If quietness is paramount I would think your leaving some decibels on the table by not running a 5w-50 or even a 10w-60 oil.
Sincerely,
Macster.
In any event, at every other time Ive changed oil (0W-40 always), there was absolutely no change in the engine sound. Further, Ive been changing my own oil for decades now on over a half dozen cars. Not one time have I ever heard a change in engine sound by just swapping the same oil. Not once. So I would most definitely say it is anything but "normal." In fact, if you're hearing a difference from just swapping the same oil my guess is you're either using an insufficient oil and/or have been running it to long because its likely been sheared to hell because of the heat these engines produce. That funny sound is your IMS screaming at you to stop being so obtuse.
My standard for a decision on this is oil's current formulation, the opinions of experienced tuners/mechanics, reports from other involved owners, and UOA from solid firms like Blackstone. Conversely, it looks like your standard is solely what is on Porsche's current approved list. Given most of these cars are now out of warranty I can guess how much Porsche cares to have its approved list up-to-date on the very best current lube for these engines. To each their own.
Last edited by NewYorkBuck; 06-29-2011 at 05:00 PM.
06-29-2011, 05:23 PM
#65
Nordschleife Master
06-29-2011, 05:49 PM
#66
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We need to start a poll and allow those that want to "go" with the Porsche approved oil and those that can "read" and "think" above the Porsche standard.
a) 996TT Rennlister's that are interested in NEW thoughts and products to keep our cars and engines running longer against the trend
b) 996TT Rennlisters that want to stay the course with Porsche's approved guidelines and don't care about the snake oil claims and heresay..
c) 996TT Rennlisters >> I don't give a rats arsss, I just want to drive my car..
The bottom line is>> When Porsche built this engine AND the 997.1TT engine the OIL formulation was based with a metal conditioning package that is NOT there today.. Motorcycle oils, RACE oils, and Heavy Duty industrial ala Diesel oils have NOT been reformulated to the extent that the RETAIL Automobile oils have been.
You will have to make a choice.. Similar do you think that the older 30 and 40 year tech at the Porsche dealer stomachs pouring 0W40 into a older 930, 965 or 993TT??? They ALL do it. If they had the conviction they will walk up to you and tell you to go somewhere else.. The 0W40 is approved while your are driving out your 993TT and hours later it's smoking nonstop. At startup the pistons are slapping and rattling in there cylinders..
I'm standing on my soapbox, telling ALL those that read these oil threads that there are folks that call me, telling me there engine problems. I recently talked to a Rennlister who has 60K on his engine. He has had the car service within Porsche guidelines. Oil changes between 7500 and 10K.. He has read these threads for years. He decided to change his oil.. He was sickened when he pulled his oil filter to find METAL bits in the filter. His call was for advise... He wanted the feel good "words" to calm his stomach ache.. I told him that there was no "cure" change your oil, and trade the car into the dealer and get a CPO'd car or new Turbo. In parting I told him that he should have taken heed my advice and switched oils AND lowered his oil change interval. 5000 is a stretch... Put the Mobil 5W40 Turbo diesel or 5W40 Delvac in and get your oil sampled, watch your TBN numbers... We see what the TBN is at 3000 miles from Paul's previous posting.. If you don't like the Heavy duty diesel oil which is API rated, run a RACE oil or Motorcycle oil that is API rated..
Macster you are NOT "helping" those that want to HELP themselves. Similar to the vario-cam thread. Your dealer techs a taking you snipe hunting. I see more bearing than anyone else in this business. Turbocharger rotating assy are spinning in excess of 180K RPM's and I can gauge the wear on these engines. I have tore down my share of 996TT engines to gauge the wear rates.
If folks want to stay with the Porsche recommended service schedule and "approved" products >> do it your way and live by it..
a) 996TT Rennlister's that are interested in NEW thoughts and products to keep our cars and engines running longer against the trend
b) 996TT Rennlisters that want to stay the course with Porsche's approved guidelines and don't care about the snake oil claims and heresay..
c) 996TT Rennlisters >> I don't give a rats arsss, I just want to drive my car..
The bottom line is>> When Porsche built this engine AND the 997.1TT engine the OIL formulation was based with a metal conditioning package that is NOT there today.. Motorcycle oils, RACE oils, and Heavy Duty industrial ala Diesel oils have NOT been reformulated to the extent that the RETAIL Automobile oils have been.
You will have to make a choice.. Similar do you think that the older 30 and 40 year tech at the Porsche dealer stomachs pouring 0W40 into a older 930, 965 or 993TT??? They ALL do it. If they had the conviction they will walk up to you and tell you to go somewhere else.. The 0W40 is approved while your are driving out your 993TT and hours later it's smoking nonstop. At startup the pistons are slapping and rattling in there cylinders..
I'm standing on my soapbox, telling ALL those that read these oil threads that there are folks that call me, telling me there engine problems. I recently talked to a Rennlister who has 60K on his engine. He has had the car service within Porsche guidelines. Oil changes between 7500 and 10K.. He has read these threads for years. He decided to change his oil.. He was sickened when he pulled his oil filter to find METAL bits in the filter. His call was for advise... He wanted the feel good "words" to calm his stomach ache.. I told him that there was no "cure" change your oil, and trade the car into the dealer and get a CPO'd car or new Turbo. In parting I told him that he should have taken heed my advice and switched oils AND lowered his oil change interval. 5000 is a stretch... Put the Mobil 5W40 Turbo diesel or 5W40 Delvac in and get your oil sampled, watch your TBN numbers... We see what the TBN is at 3000 miles from Paul's previous posting.. If you don't like the Heavy duty diesel oil which is API rated, run a RACE oil or Motorcycle oil that is API rated..
Macster you are NOT "helping" those that want to HELP themselves. Similar to the vario-cam thread. Your dealer techs a taking you snipe hunting. I see more bearing than anyone else in this business. Turbocharger rotating assy are spinning in excess of 180K RPM's and I can gauge the wear on these engines. I have tore down my share of 996TT engines to gauge the wear rates.
If folks want to stay with the Porsche recommended service schedule and "approved" products >> do it your way and live by it..
06-29-2011, 06:30 PM
#67
I just took a look at this thread and did not read all of it (fell asleep part way through).
No expert here, so I will state MHO. Oil in Porsche has multiple uses...one is to act as a lubricant (doh)...as temperatures rise the lubricating properties are directly related to the viscosity (i.e., higher viscosity, better lubrication....at higher temp.). However there is a dilemma...when do you want the lubrication to be best? (e.g., when is the wear on the engine the greatest?) When the car is starting...the lower viscosity at start helps to lubricate better (so that's why we have multi-grade oils).
The second purpose of the oil in a Porsche is to act as a coolant...another dilemma...the cooling properties are inversely related to the viscosity (higher viscosity lower cooling properties). So there goes the arguments:
1. You want best lubrication at start....lower viscosity
2. You want better lubricating at higher temp....higher viscosity
3. You want better cooling at higher temp....lower viscosity
4. Which oil is best for you is a compromise for your driving styles (track/street), environment (ambient conditions), maintenance budget (a track junky should be budgeting to replace components sooner than a street driver), factory recommendations, tuner recommendations, internet site opinions, etc.
So it is all about compromise...but I still think the most definitive study (not in a lab BTW) is by Doug Hillary...google.
No expert here, so I will state MHO. Oil in Porsche has multiple uses...one is to act as a lubricant (doh)...as temperatures rise the lubricating properties are directly related to the viscosity (i.e., higher viscosity, better lubrication....at higher temp.). However there is a dilemma...when do you want the lubrication to be best? (e.g., when is the wear on the engine the greatest?) When the car is starting...the lower viscosity at start helps to lubricate better (so that's why we have multi-grade oils).
The second purpose of the oil in a Porsche is to act as a coolant...another dilemma...the cooling properties are inversely related to the viscosity (higher viscosity lower cooling properties). So there goes the arguments:
1. You want best lubrication at start....lower viscosity
2. You want better lubricating at higher temp....higher viscosity
3. You want better cooling at higher temp....lower viscosity
4. Which oil is best for you is a compromise for your driving styles (track/street), environment (ambient conditions), maintenance budget (a track junky should be budgeting to replace components sooner than a street driver), factory recommendations, tuner recommendations, internet site opinions, etc.
So it is all about compromise...but I still think the most definitive study (not in a lab BTW) is by Doug Hillary...google.
06-29-2011, 06:46 PM
#68
Burning Brakes
I just took a look at this thread and did not read all of it (fell asleep part way through).
No expert here, so I will state MHO. Oil in Porsche has multiple uses...one is to act as a lubricant (doh)...as temperatures rise the lubricating properties are directly related to the viscosity (i.e., higher viscosity, better lubrication....at higher temp.). However there is a dilemma...when do you want the lubrication to be best? (e.g., when is the wear on the engine the greatest?) When the car is starting...the lower viscosity at start helps to lubricate better (so that's why we have multi-grade oils).
The second purpose of the oil in a Porsche is to act as a coolant...another dilemma...the cooling properties are inversely related to the viscosity (higher viscosity lower cooling properties). So there goes the arguments:
1. You want best lubrication at start....lower viscosity
2. You want better lubricating at higher temp....higher viscosity
3. You want better cooling at higher temp....lower viscosity
4. Which oil is best for you is a compromise for your driving styles (track/street), environment (ambient conditions), maintenance budget (a track junky should be budgeting to replace components sooner than a street driver), factory recommendations, tuner recommendations, internet site opinions, etc.
So it is all about compromise...but I still think the most definitive study (not in a lab BTW) is by Doug Hillary...google.
No expert here, so I will state MHO. Oil in Porsche has multiple uses...one is to act as a lubricant (doh)...as temperatures rise the lubricating properties are directly related to the viscosity (i.e., higher viscosity, better lubrication....at higher temp.). However there is a dilemma...when do you want the lubrication to be best? (e.g., when is the wear on the engine the greatest?) When the car is starting...the lower viscosity at start helps to lubricate better (so that's why we have multi-grade oils).
The second purpose of the oil in a Porsche is to act as a coolant...another dilemma...the cooling properties are inversely related to the viscosity (higher viscosity lower cooling properties). So there goes the arguments:
1. You want best lubrication at start....lower viscosity
2. You want better lubricating at higher temp....higher viscosity
3. You want better cooling at higher temp....lower viscosity
4. Which oil is best for you is a compromise for your driving styles (track/street), environment (ambient conditions), maintenance budget (a track junky should be budgeting to replace components sooner than a street driver), factory recommendations, tuner recommendations, internet site opinions, etc.
So it is all about compromise...but I still think the most definitive study (not in a lab BTW) is by Doug Hillary...google.
See post #26 in the link below (although this may be in regards to the non ESP version of D1)-
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...uck-oil-2.html
06-29-2011, 08:21 PM
#70
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Since oil threads get beaten to death regularly... I'll make an attempt at a self-serving question:
I've had good luck with Elf/Total Quartz 9000 5w40 in my AMG, and it's not terribly expensive (buy mine from autohaus az by the jug). I see it's a Porsche-approved oil... but perhaps more importantly, has anyone used it in a 996TT? If so, how well did it perform?
http://www.finalube.com/Product_Data...y_5w40_pdf.pdf
EDIT: also, does anyone add an anti-friction additive like Lubro Moly MOS2 or BG MOA to raise the moly disulfide content?
I've had good luck with Elf/Total Quartz 9000 5w40 in my AMG, and it's not terribly expensive (buy mine from autohaus az by the jug). I see it's a Porsche-approved oil... but perhaps more importantly, has anyone used it in a 996TT? If so, how well did it perform?
http://www.finalube.com/Product_Data...y_5w40_pdf.pdf
EDIT: also, does anyone add an anti-friction additive like Lubro Moly MOS2 or BG MOA to raise the moly disulfide content?
06-29-2011, 08:43 PM
#71
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C32AMG, Elf is regulated to reformulate the oil. Did you look at the previous Blackstone report that Paul posted? Moly, calcium, and boron are the new additives in Mobil 0W40 and 5W50..
To see how your oil is doing, get a oil sample to Blackstone and compare it to the posted tests.
To see how your oil is doing, get a oil sample to Blackstone and compare it to the posted tests.
06-29-2011, 08:59 PM
#72
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C32AMG, Elf is regulated to reformulate the oil. Did you look at the previous Blackstone report that Paul posted? Moly, calcium, and boron are the new additives in Mobil 0W40 and 5W50..
To see how your oil is doing, get a oil sample to Blackstone and compare it to the posted tests.
To see how your oil is doing, get a oil sample to Blackstone and compare it to the posted tests.
Thanks for the reply. I saw the report, but honestly don't know quite what I'm looking at (other than the text, which they conclude with "nice report"). They state that his TBN is 6.5, which they seem to feel is very good... they go on to state that below 1.0 should be considered "low." How long does it take the TBN to drop near/below 1.0?
I thought Moly disulfide was one of the compounds reformulated out of modern synthetics for emission system protection (at the expense of engine wear)?
Thanks again for sharing your insights.
06-29-2011, 10:37 PM
#73
Interesting...
bobistheoilguy
Michael.
Originally Posted by Doug Hillary
Hi, Fabio - Welcome to BITOG - enjoy your stay with our International family!
M1 0W-40 is most suitable for your 997. Do not be worried by the RMS issue! RMS = Rear Main Seal - many cars show some signs of main seal leaks - in 997 Porsche engines it really is a minor issue!
I use Delvac 1 5W-40 in my M96 but it was on M1 0W-40 since new and it now has 130kkms. It uses no oil at 17kkms OCIs
One Poster has suggested using Castrol Syntec 5W-50. This oil has NOT been Approved by Porsche since MY1999. The only Approved SAE50 lubricant is M1 5W-50 - for very sound reasons!
Stay with M1 0W-40 it is used by Porsche, Mercedes Benz and Aston Martin in their own cars for racing. Their Engineers love this lubricant!!! As an example, all of these Companies used it at the Nurburgring for the ADAC 24hr last May and Aston Martin's Test-Development Centre is based at Nurburg as you will already know
I love the 'Ring - it takes some getting used too - do you like it too? It is a very frightening circuit for many!!!
Adenau is a lovely town with two excellent Italian Restaurants too!
_________________________ Regards Doug
06 Mercedes Benz CLK (M1 0W-40 SM/CF) 01 Porsche Boxster (Delvac 1 5W-40 CI-4/SL) 08 Suzuki Burgman AN650K8 (Castrol R4Superbike 5W-40 SG/MA)
M1 0W-40 is most suitable for your 997. Do not be worried by the RMS issue! RMS = Rear Main Seal - many cars show some signs of main seal leaks - in 997 Porsche engines it really is a minor issue!
I use Delvac 1 5W-40 in my M96 but it was on M1 0W-40 since new and it now has 130kkms. It uses no oil at 17kkms OCIs
One Poster has suggested using Castrol Syntec 5W-50. This oil has NOT been Approved by Porsche since MY1999. The only Approved SAE50 lubricant is M1 5W-50 - for very sound reasons!
Stay with M1 0W-40 it is used by Porsche, Mercedes Benz and Aston Martin in their own cars for racing. Their Engineers love this lubricant!!! As an example, all of these Companies used it at the Nurburgring for the ADAC 24hr last May and Aston Martin's Test-Development Centre is based at Nurburg as you will already know
I love the 'Ring - it takes some getting used too - do you like it too? It is a very frightening circuit for many!!!
Adenau is a lovely town with two excellent Italian Restaurants too!
_________________________ Regards Doug
06 Mercedes Benz CLK (M1 0W-40 SM/CF) 01 Porsche Boxster (Delvac 1 5W-40 CI-4/SL) 08 Suzuki Burgman AN650K8 (Castrol R4Superbike 5W-40 SG/MA)
Michael.
06-29-2011, 10:43 PM
#74
Originally Posted by Doug Hillary
Hi, Dennis - My Boxster was on M1 0W-40 from new. When I purchased it I "modified" it to run a little warmer than stock and felt that I needed a slightly higher HTHS vis. This is probably overkill as the coolant/oil interface never goes beyond 105C anyway
I live in the Tropics (a cold winter's start is around 15C, a cold summer start is around 24C - a normal winter's day is around 24C and a summer's day to around >40C) and I do a lot of long distance trips
I've run Delvac 1 5W-40 in every "modern" Porsche I've owned - and HDEOs in most of my engines since the 1960s. My last stock of Delvac 1 5W-40 is almost gone too!!!
The Boxster will be getting M1 0W-40 at its next OC - my Benz will stay on it. It is a true "Premium" lubricant with a very very long and successful history!
I don't believe a SAE50 lubricant - even M1 5W-50 which is also an excellent lubricant - is warranted in these engines in typical use!
I also believe that a Non Approved lubricant (except for some HDEOs like I use) can be counterproductive in some Porsche engines - this has to do with viscosity retention and foaming Many Porsche engines have more than one oil pump, a "dry" sump of some configuration or other (as in the M96) and quite complex valve actuation - typically with buckets - so superior flow characteristics are warranted at all temperatures
I hope this explains the reasons
Edited by Doug Hillary (01/08/11 02:29 PM) Edit Reason: Accuracy - spelling _________________________ Regards Doug
06 Mercedes Benz CLK (M1 0W-40 SM/CF) 01 Porsche Boxster (Delvac 1 5W-40 CI-4/SL) 08 Suzuki Burgman AN650K8 (Castrol R4Superbike 5W-40 SG/MA)
I live in the Tropics (a cold winter's start is around 15C, a cold summer start is around 24C - a normal winter's day is around 24C and a summer's day to around >40C) and I do a lot of long distance trips
I've run Delvac 1 5W-40 in every "modern" Porsche I've owned - and HDEOs in most of my engines since the 1960s. My last stock of Delvac 1 5W-40 is almost gone too!!!
The Boxster will be getting M1 0W-40 at its next OC - my Benz will stay on it. It is a true "Premium" lubricant with a very very long and successful history!
I don't believe a SAE50 lubricant - even M1 5W-50 which is also an excellent lubricant - is warranted in these engines in typical use!
I also believe that a Non Approved lubricant (except for some HDEOs like I use) can be counterproductive in some Porsche engines - this has to do with viscosity retention and foaming Many Porsche engines have more than one oil pump, a "dry" sump of some configuration or other (as in the M96) and quite complex valve actuation - typically with buckets - so superior flow characteristics are warranted at all temperatures
I hope this explains the reasons
Edited by Doug Hillary (01/08/11 02:29 PM) Edit Reason: Accuracy - spelling _________________________ Regards Doug
06 Mercedes Benz CLK (M1 0W-40 SM/CF) 01 Porsche Boxster (Delvac 1 5W-40 CI-4/SL) 08 Suzuki Burgman AN650K8 (Castrol R4Superbike 5W-40 SG/MA)
06-29-2011, 10:57 PM
#75
Originally Posted by Doug Hillary
Hi, hutchingsp - This thread has developed very well indeed. I hope I can remain objective!
Firstly, Porsche have ALWAYS had long OCIs, ever since they started building cars and engines for sale - from around 1955! Over 50 years!!!
Secondly I don’t believe that Porsche were foolish in establishing the two years and 32kkms (20k miles) maximum OCI service policy when using their Approved and Listed lubricants. Some other Euro engine makers have done so too
It serves to remind us that we are using a very valuable resource and that their research has shown that the Approved and Listed lubricants will do the job very well indeed - any of the 100 or so on the their List! In our near future we will see two or more years or “lifetime” fill become commonplace across a raft of engine manufacturers!
It is interesting to note that Porsche carried out a systematic and well controlled UOA programme in NA commencing with MY02 and continued it for some years. They will have data that we can but dream about! They do NOT set services intervals at levels that would impact on Warranty and/or durability
I also carried out testing commencing some years ago to prove/disprove Porsche’s policy after a well known Porsche service provider in California (and another here in Sydney) promoted the “fallacy” of it and that his subjective and wrong policy of 3k miles OCI regardless was correct! My testing to establish the point (see RENNLIST 928 Forum - search “Oil Condition Report”) over nearly four years showed that the 20kkms (12k miles) or two year OCI is actually very conservative! This programme is continuing amongst some 928 owners here in OZ with records going into my database
For those persons who don’t agree with the (any) engine’s manufacturer, they can simply use UOAs to establish an OCI that they feel comfortable with - it’s as simple as that really For many, the real problem with UOAs is in the interpretation - especially the level and source of wear metals. Many chase “spooks” in this area! Some people still believe that single pass UOAs with different lubricants will tell a true wear history of the engine and how good/bad a lubricant is!
As we know (and have done for 60 years or so) , UOAs are excellent tool for determining the OCI in most machinery - and it is always wise to remember that wear metals are accumulative! As an example I have run many of my very expensive ($45000) engines with iron at up to 150ppm when at the lubricant’s condemnation point - and their overall durability has been really exceptional. Some engines are now at 2m kms (1.24m miles) without a rebuild!
Both Porsche and Benz in this country (and in Germany) are very happy with the performance of M1 0w-40 which is mandatory in OZ - and Benz have much local data to back it up! Their average OCI is around 18k kms! My CLK Benz (on M1 0w-40) has a “reactive” service indicator and it runs at around 15k-17k OCIs
As for other lubricants, the Porsche Approved List contains around 100 Brands/versions and around 80% are of 5w-40 viscosity - the balance are 0w-40 viscosity. There is only one SAE50 lubricant, Mobil 1 5w-50! I believe that they will all perform about the same and I am very sure that Porsche know this. The performance margins from one to another in engine life/durability and etc. will be VERY minor indeed! Technicians from Stuttgart (some ex the 1960-1970s racing programme) that I have spent time with are adamant that M1 0w-40 is “the” lubricant for all road going Porsches - and they use it for racing too in late series engines!
I have yet to hear of an engine using M1 0w-40 that has suffered any sort of measurable “excessive” wear or lubricant related issue - from Porsche, Benz or Mobil - or from any owners! I have seen a number of high “mileage” Porsche and Benz engines that have used this lubricant from new and they have all been internally clean, consumption low and with no discernible wear being evident in the valve train region
M1 0w-40 sells here within a price range of from $65 to $95 for a 5 litre pack. Porsche charges about $25 for a filter
My use of a non Approved 5w-40 synthetic lubricant in my Porsche is based on past history - and with the approval of Porsche here in OZ. They know my history quite well! I know the history of their M96 engine too. And, I am fully aware about the structure and performance of the lubricant after many years of use and I purchase it in "bulk" I live in the Tropics too where an average cold start in summer is 27C and in winter about 10C - maximum ambient is over 40C and humidity can be 90%>
With MY2007 cars Porsche will pull the two years point back to one year - this is due to the conversion of all engine families to Direct Injection (DI) from that point! A 0w-40 viscosity lubricant will still be the only one permitted in the twin turbo V8 engine family!
I am retired and I do NOT have an affiliation with any Oil Company. I selectively use Mobil, Castrol and Shell lubricants in my vehicles
Now, being totally objective, it is wise to remember that there really is no magic lubricant!
Regards Doug
_________________________ Regards Doug
06 Mercedes Benz CLK (M1 0W-40 SM/CF) 01 Porsche Boxster (Delvac 1 5W-40 CI-4/SL) 08 Suzuki Burgman AN650K8 (Castrol R4Superbike 5W-40 SG/MA)
Firstly, Porsche have ALWAYS had long OCIs, ever since they started building cars and engines for sale - from around 1955! Over 50 years!!!
Secondly I don’t believe that Porsche were foolish in establishing the two years and 32kkms (20k miles) maximum OCI service policy when using their Approved and Listed lubricants. Some other Euro engine makers have done so too
It serves to remind us that we are using a very valuable resource and that their research has shown that the Approved and Listed lubricants will do the job very well indeed - any of the 100 or so on the their List! In our near future we will see two or more years or “lifetime” fill become commonplace across a raft of engine manufacturers!
It is interesting to note that Porsche carried out a systematic and well controlled UOA programme in NA commencing with MY02 and continued it for some years. They will have data that we can but dream about! They do NOT set services intervals at levels that would impact on Warranty and/or durability
I also carried out testing commencing some years ago to prove/disprove Porsche’s policy after a well known Porsche service provider in California (and another here in Sydney) promoted the “fallacy” of it and that his subjective and wrong policy of 3k miles OCI regardless was correct! My testing to establish the point (see RENNLIST 928 Forum - search “Oil Condition Report”) over nearly four years showed that the 20kkms (12k miles) or two year OCI is actually very conservative! This programme is continuing amongst some 928 owners here in OZ with records going into my database
For those persons who don’t agree with the (any) engine’s manufacturer, they can simply use UOAs to establish an OCI that they feel comfortable with - it’s as simple as that really For many, the real problem with UOAs is in the interpretation - especially the level and source of wear metals. Many chase “spooks” in this area! Some people still believe that single pass UOAs with different lubricants will tell a true wear history of the engine and how good/bad a lubricant is!
As we know (and have done for 60 years or so) , UOAs are excellent tool for determining the OCI in most machinery - and it is always wise to remember that wear metals are accumulative! As an example I have run many of my very expensive ($45000) engines with iron at up to 150ppm when at the lubricant’s condemnation point - and their overall durability has been really exceptional. Some engines are now at 2m kms (1.24m miles) without a rebuild!
Both Porsche and Benz in this country (and in Germany) are very happy with the performance of M1 0w-40 which is mandatory in OZ - and Benz have much local data to back it up! Their average OCI is around 18k kms! My CLK Benz (on M1 0w-40) has a “reactive” service indicator and it runs at around 15k-17k OCIs
As for other lubricants, the Porsche Approved List contains around 100 Brands/versions and around 80% are of 5w-40 viscosity - the balance are 0w-40 viscosity. There is only one SAE50 lubricant, Mobil 1 5w-50! I believe that they will all perform about the same and I am very sure that Porsche know this. The performance margins from one to another in engine life/durability and etc. will be VERY minor indeed! Technicians from Stuttgart (some ex the 1960-1970s racing programme) that I have spent time with are adamant that M1 0w-40 is “the” lubricant for all road going Porsches - and they use it for racing too in late series engines!
I have yet to hear of an engine using M1 0w-40 that has suffered any sort of measurable “excessive” wear or lubricant related issue - from Porsche, Benz or Mobil - or from any owners! I have seen a number of high “mileage” Porsche and Benz engines that have used this lubricant from new and they have all been internally clean, consumption low and with no discernible wear being evident in the valve train region
M1 0w-40 sells here within a price range of from $65 to $95 for a 5 litre pack. Porsche charges about $25 for a filter
My use of a non Approved 5w-40 synthetic lubricant in my Porsche is based on past history - and with the approval of Porsche here in OZ. They know my history quite well! I know the history of their M96 engine too. And, I am fully aware about the structure and performance of the lubricant after many years of use and I purchase it in "bulk" I live in the Tropics too where an average cold start in summer is 27C and in winter about 10C - maximum ambient is over 40C and humidity can be 90%>
With MY2007 cars Porsche will pull the two years point back to one year - this is due to the conversion of all engine families to Direct Injection (DI) from that point! A 0w-40 viscosity lubricant will still be the only one permitted in the twin turbo V8 engine family!
I am retired and I do NOT have an affiliation with any Oil Company. I selectively use Mobil, Castrol and Shell lubricants in my vehicles
Now, being totally objective, it is wise to remember that there really is no magic lubricant!
Regards Doug
_________________________ Regards Doug
06 Mercedes Benz CLK (M1 0W-40 SM/CF) 01 Porsche Boxster (Delvac 1 5W-40 CI-4/SL) 08 Suzuki Burgman AN650K8 (Castrol R4Superbike 5W-40 SG/MA)
Michael.