Ultimate Motorwerks new K24 HyFlow turbocharger
09-30-2007, 05:41 PM
#46
Guys, keep the "mean" stuff off the list and in PM's please.
IF you have to criticize a vendor, have data, and perhaps have the car with time in/under/on the car too. As a rule, UMW doesn't not announce anything without data. Please keep that in mind. His policy.
I am a happy UMW customer. Nothing more than that.
I don't think it is quite fair to attack from a 993TT a 996TT vendor (although UMW has stuff for a lot of cars). Also, if you are a protomotive person, please identify your bias as such and proceed. What happend today has actually made me and my friend a lot less likely to go with anything protomotive. And he lives in Little Rock, AR. No joke, this little escapade may have cost the protomotove people a full (meaning 700hp type of thing) mod. The guy is thinking UMW or EVO now...I have my strong bias toward the former (see sig).
Anyway, more than one smart person lives out there for porsche cars. I have been happy with UMW and have just never dealt with protomotive (almost bought a 993TT with proto mods....car was from Boston, stopped that move when the seller told me the turbo both got fried 14,000 into/after the mod and were just replaced in an effort to make me feel better...just one car, just one driver, but I got spooked...car was up on sale last December on edmund.com with about 80k miles, so it was cheap....). I just cannot afford new turbos. I suspect serious driver error on that persons part, but you never know. I know of three guys with protomotive cars and all are happy on this and 6speed. I am sure there are a lot in both camps (or both vendors would be in big trouble).
So, lets all move on. I for one think Kevin is doing/adding great value to our cars and the market. I hope he and others continue to move forward (and make such things as affordable as possible).
Jeff
IF you have to criticize a vendor, have data, and perhaps have the car with time in/under/on the car too. As a rule, UMW doesn't not announce anything without data. Please keep that in mind. His policy.
I am a happy UMW customer. Nothing more than that.
I don't think it is quite fair to attack from a 993TT a 996TT vendor (although UMW has stuff for a lot of cars). Also, if you are a protomotive person, please identify your bias as such and proceed. What happend today has actually made me and my friend a lot less likely to go with anything protomotive. And he lives in Little Rock, AR. No joke, this little escapade may have cost the protomotove people a full (meaning 700hp type of thing) mod. The guy is thinking UMW or EVO now...I have my strong bias toward the former (see sig).
Anyway, more than one smart person lives out there for porsche cars. I have been happy with UMW and have just never dealt with protomotive (almost bought a 993TT with proto mods....car was from Boston, stopped that move when the seller told me the turbo both got fried 14,000 into/after the mod and were just replaced in an effort to make me feel better...just one car, just one driver, but I got spooked...car was up on sale last December on edmund.com with about 80k miles, so it was cheap....). I just cannot afford new turbos. I suspect serious driver error on that persons part, but you never know. I know of three guys with protomotive cars and all are happy on this and 6speed. I am sure there are a lot in both camps (or both vendors would be in big trouble).
So, lets all move on. I for one think Kevin is doing/adding great value to our cars and the market. I hope he and others continue to move forward (and make such things as affordable as possible).
Jeff
09-30-2007, 07:57 PM
#47
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The part of this that really smells is that it is taking place in a thread in which UMW has announced a new product. If you have issues with UMW products or policies, I think it would be more honorable to start a new thread rather than tarnish this one. I expect more thoughtful behavior from rennlisters.
Jeff
09-30-2007, 08:08 PM
#48
Three Wheelin'
I don't know who came up with the analogy that Knighton is the the ONLY one to do his own programming. I have sat in the car with my tuner and watched him do his own programming
Christian
Christian
09-30-2007, 08:58 PM
#49
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Marty you are way out of line here..
The Z/C turbochargers that failed were with ECU programmed by Protomotive that REMOVED the boost control from the ECU.. Moving the boost control into the hands of a car owner (with the use of a EBC) allows them to pick the boost that they want. The lack of boost control caused the shaft speed to run critical.. The end result was that the turbine wheel snapped in half... To make myself more clear.. If you Redline the shaft speed you risk snapping the shaft and that's what happened..
I do NOT script KPG's remarks.. He's a big boy and writes what he want's too.
Clearly most people that are reading this thread are "going to read between the lines" Here I am bringing a new product to the market place and all the negative posts are from another tuners customers.
The Z/C turbochargers that failed were with ECU programmed by Protomotive that REMOVED the boost control from the ECU.. Moving the boost control into the hands of a car owner (with the use of a EBC) allows them to pick the boost that they want. The lack of boost control caused the shaft speed to run critical.. The end result was that the turbine wheel snapped in half... To make myself more clear.. If you Redline the shaft speed you risk snapping the shaft and that's what happened..
I do NOT script KPG's remarks.. He's a big boy and writes what he want's too.
Clearly most people that are reading this thread are "going to read between the lines" Here I am bringing a new product to the market place and all the negative posts are from another tuners customers.
09-30-2007, 09:12 PM
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I am a Protomotive Customer (biased) and some info givin here (by KPG) is incorrect.
Myself and another local Minnesota guy had a "different experience" with UMW zero clearance turbos
on our 993TT's (I still have the pictures of the flatbed and the turbo failure pictures
which were of course the fault of the 993tt owner and not the ZeroClearance turbos, according to UMW.)
First off; KPG is very UNBIASED and UMW advises him on what to say and not to say.
(This is a very different philosophy between Protomotive and UMW, because Todd K
at Protomotive could not care less about what other tuners are doing or how they do it nor
does he ever suggest that someone "brag about his products") unlike UMW where if you buy
something your are "strongly advised" to go on the forums and brag.
Protomotive builds almost everything in house (except turbos) and is the only tuner that
does not "FARM OUT" programming. Todd Knighton is a genius when it comes to programming and also has a unique philosophy about it.
UMW has a very convenient arrangement with a gentleman
from Germany to do this (programming) for him. (This, ironically is part of
Evolution Motorsports (EVOMS) current problem with their high horsepower
systems...they are so heavily dependent upon the services (or lack of)
Garret Liam of GIAC.
Protomotive does not delete the O2 sensors as a general practice, I run mine with the standard
Catalyctic converters that came with my Europipe exhaust system, and run
only unleaded gas, period.
KPG's comment about "Mark (Markski) has no power down low" is dishonest and an outright lie.
KPG, do you want me to dig up and publish the HP/TQ figures for Markski's car at say 4500 rpm.
I will publish these and see if people think this amount of power is enough or not.
The 6000 rpm launches were in pursuit of a world record (9 second quarter mile which the car
has now run), and with a soft launch the car has run many easy 10 second quarter miles. It is common
knowledge that the huge garret water cooled GT35r's combined with the camshafts he has,
are not going to light up at 2500 rpms, but this is the combo Markski has chosen.
One should not choose a tuner because what a customer says or questions about another tuner, go drive a car with the system you are seeking and see
how it drives and feels. Unfortunately it takes more than just intelligence
to weed through all of the different things that form a decision about where
to spend your money and who with.
I am biased, and I am also one of the few who has tried both products.
UMW has done an enormous amount of dilligent research and builds brilliant
turbos but currently there are not any cars on the road to back up his outrageous dyno sheet that he posted on this very forum so we all will have to
wait and see.
Marty
Myself and another local Minnesota guy had a "different experience" with UMW zero clearance turbos
on our 993TT's (I still have the pictures of the flatbed and the turbo failure pictures
which were of course the fault of the 993tt owner and not the ZeroClearance turbos, according to UMW.)First off; KPG is very UNBIASED and UMW advises him on what to say and not to say.
(This is a very different philosophy between Protomotive and UMW, because Todd K
at Protomotive could not care less about what other tuners are doing or how they do it nor
does he ever suggest that someone "brag about his products") unlike UMW where if you buy
something your are "strongly advised" to go on the forums and brag.
Protomotive builds almost everything in house (except turbos) and is the only tuner that
does not "FARM OUT" programming. Todd Knighton is a genius when it comes to programming and also has a unique philosophy about it.
UMW has a very convenient arrangement with a gentleman
from Germany to do this (programming) for him. (This, ironically is part of
Evolution Motorsports (EVOMS) current problem with their high horsepower
systems...they are so heavily dependent upon the services (or lack of)
Garret Liam of GIAC.
Protomotive does not delete the O2 sensors as a general practice, I run mine with the standard
Catalyctic converters that came with my Europipe exhaust system, and run
only unleaded gas, period.
KPG's comment about "Mark (Markski) has no power down low" is dishonest and an outright lie.
KPG, do you want me to dig up and publish the HP/TQ figures for Markski's car at say 4500 rpm.
I will publish these and see if people think this amount of power is enough or not.
The 6000 rpm launches were in pursuit of a world record (9 second quarter mile which the car
has now run), and with a soft launch the car has run many easy 10 second quarter miles. It is common
knowledge that the huge garret water cooled GT35r's combined with the camshafts he has,
are not going to light up at 2500 rpms, but this is the combo Markski has chosen.
One should not choose a tuner because what a customer says or questions about another tuner, go drive a car with the system you are seeking and see
how it drives and feels. Unfortunately it takes more than just intelligence
to weed through all of the different things that form a decision about where
to spend your money and who with.
I am biased, and I am also one of the few who has tried both products.
UMW has done an enormous amount of dilligent research and builds brilliant
turbos but currently there are not any cars on the road to back up his outrageous dyno sheet that he posted on this very forum so we all will have to
wait and see.
Marty
09-30-2007, 09:45 PM
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KPG did the rest to turn it into a protomotive vs UMW thread.
Its very dissapointing that Rennllist is going the way of 6speed.
Over there, whenever, any EVO product or claim is made everyone is expected to cheer in unison. Dissent is not well tolerated.
Here it seems, the same applies to UMW.
Is that what Board sponsorship gets you?
I am unbiased since I don't have any tuner products yet.
I have considered and may still go with Kevins tuning package in time.
However, I don't think that challenging a claim made by a tuner(irrepsective of sponsorship status) is a bad thing. I don't believe Jean's comments were in any way personal as opposed to the response.
John D's analogy with Cameras is useful except ultimately, whether people prefer Canon or Nikon will still come down to the subjective.
It is different with tuning products..at least I hope so.That is where jean's comment sits...objectively, he raised doubts about the real word merit of the new product....based on the info the vendor made available.
[quote Jcb memphis] " IF you have to criticize a vendor, have data, and perhaps have the car with time in/under/on the car too." [end quote]
Kevin didn't test the product on the road....Jean challenged the veracity of this type of testing and its significance to real world performance.
You don't need a car to do that.
Experience counts.He made valid points which were not refuted.
Finally, I don't consider myself stupid, yet I have read and re read kevin's posts and I am still muddled about the relevance of this new prodcut and where it sits in the UMW heirachy.
Hopefully, for this will be cleared up in time.
constructively yours
09-30-2007, 09:57 PM
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With all due respect...a Protomotive customer comes on here and claims UMW is gravitating toward Knighton and "I" made it a Proto vs UMW.... nothing more needs to be said on that score....
As for Jean, he is great at questioning people who are not Protomotive. His anti UMW stance is well documented. On the 993 site he was questioning Jussi to the nth degree, yet proto people on other boards are claiming they will run 220+ in the TX mile and he says nothing.....Jean is many things, consistent is not one of them.
As for Jean, he is great at questioning people who are not Protomotive. His anti UMW stance is well documented. On the 993 site he was questioning Jussi to the nth degree, yet proto people on other boards are claiming they will run 220+ in the TX mile and he says nothing.....Jean is many things, consistent is not one of them.
09-30-2007, 10:04 PM
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rafiki, I received phone calls and emails that reinforced my feelings that there was another motive to skuttle this thread. Look at the signatures of the people that have posted on this thread..
I think that if you go thru my 4400 posts on this Forum 75% of them are replies to help people. Of which I don't collect a dime.. Or all the phone call or emails that I receive asking for help.
Again you are speculating if you think that this new turbine wheel is not on the road.. It has been in trial tests and in customer vehicles.. However, in due time the results will come forward.
This new product is a replacement turbine wheel. If a customer owns a X50 or GT2, and he wants to reduce "lag" I can tear down his turbochargers and install this new turbine wheel. If you don't have K16's and you want this new turbine wheel, you have two choices.. 1) Buy a new or used set of K24's, or 2) Send your K16's to me and I can convert them.
I think that if you go thru my 4400 posts on this Forum 75% of them are replies to help people. Of which I don't collect a dime.. Or all the phone call or emails that I receive asking for help.
Again you are speculating if you think that this new turbine wheel is not on the road.. It has been in trial tests and in customer vehicles.. However, in due time the results will come forward.
This new product is a replacement turbine wheel. If a customer owns a X50 or GT2, and he wants to reduce "lag" I can tear down his turbochargers and install this new turbine wheel. If you don't have K16's and you want this new turbine wheel, you have two choices.. 1) Buy a new or used set of K24's, or 2) Send your K16's to me and I can convert them.
09-30-2007, 10:08 PM
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Funny!You need a car in the "REAL WORLD" to understand that a quicker spooling turbo is a good thing and the result is more power under the curve which in real life makes your car faster and more enjoyable to drive.
09-30-2007, 10:15 PM
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rafiki, I received phone calls and emails that reinforced my feelings that there was another motive to skuttle this thread. Look at the signatures of the people that have posted on this thread..
I think that if you go thru my 4400 posts on this Forum 75% of them are replies to help people. Of which I don't collect a dime.. Or all the phone call or emails that I receive asking for help.
I think that if you go thru my 4400 posts on this Forum 75% of them are replies to help people. Of which I don't collect a dime.. Or all the phone call or emails that I receive asking for help.
Those that want to defend you becasue of the good work you do, are best advised to do so without attacking other tuners...that is just plain negative.
...it is sad when posts like yours that are there to help those that haven't yet made a decision about which tuner to go with...end up soured by defensive posts from those that have.
I think people that drive porsches are intelligent enough to read between the lines and hidden motives of posters, don't stay hidden for very long.
09-30-2007, 10:17 PM
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Funny! Would you care to elaborate on where this quicker spooling turbo sits in the UMW heirachy and provide some cost vs benefit comaprisons.
09-30-2007, 10:21 PM
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Funny! Good to see that holding the #1 EVO fan ticket does not preclude you from " supporting" other tuners.
09-30-2007, 11:17 PM
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Kevin (KPG),
I said "it seems like more tuners are gravitating towards what Protomotive has been doing for years i.e. K24 based hybrid turbos for higher HP applications and more tuneable MAF's."
I was not speaking of just UMW. I was referring to the fact that UMW and Evo both introduced alternate, more tuneable MAFs in the past year and that UMW is offering larger turbos (K24 hybrid and larger) for higher HP applications - which are new developments with these two tuners and have been being used by protomotive for a long time. I feel the comment is accurate and does demonstrate that Protomotive was on to something good - a long time ago. It's not the end of the world if one tuner figured out something a while ago (lets say more tuneable MAFs being an aid in higher HP applications)and others follow suit after the fact. I commented about a recent tuning trend I have observed, in a thead about a recent tuning development. But I guess it was a touchy area and I am sorry if it offended anybody.
I said "it seems like more tuners are gravitating towards what Protomotive has been doing for years i.e. K24 based hybrid turbos for higher HP applications and more tuneable MAF's."
I was not speaking of just UMW. I was referring to the fact that UMW and Evo both introduced alternate, more tuneable MAFs in the past year and that UMW is offering larger turbos (K24 hybrid and larger) for higher HP applications - which are new developments with these two tuners and have been being used by protomotive for a long time. I feel the comment is accurate and does demonstrate that Protomotive was on to something good - a long time ago. It's not the end of the world if one tuner figured out something a while ago (lets say more tuneable MAFs being an aid in higher HP applications)and others follow suit after the fact. I commented about a recent tuning trend I have observed, in a thead about a recent tuning development. But I guess it was a touchy area and I am sorry if it offended anybody.
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991.2 GT3 RS Weissach Racing Yellow
991.2 Turbo S GT Silver
991.2 GT3 Chalk (Manual)
2022 Cayenne White
former 1972 911T white, 1984 911 3.2 Targa black, 993 cab white, 993TT arena red, 993TT silver, 996TT speed yellow, 991.1 GT3 white
www.speedtechexhausts.com
info@speedtechexhausts.com
Testimonials SpeedTech Exhaust Videos facebook